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Author Topic: The Body's Natural Testosterone Production Levels  (Read 5936 times)

Sam

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The Body's Natural Testosterone Production Levels
« on: August 01, 2013, 09:23:42 pm »
Something else to consider,  if the average person produces between 5-7mg of endogenous testosterone per day then over the course of a week a healthy person would have used somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-50mg of testosterone.  This would be used to maintain a healthy balance of testosterone, dht and estrogen.

A 100mg injection gives you about 50mg of exogenous testosterone to play with in the first week and 25mg in the second week.   If you are on biweekly injections you can start to feel hypogonadal again.  If you are on weekly then the second week your body has about 75mg to play with and you start getting pushed into the "optimized" ranges.  Now if you are a high converter to estrogens or dht you may need a little more to reach a good balance and/or arimidex to block some estrogen conversion, but proper use of arimidex should also let you inject less than you otherwise  would to reach a good testosterone to estrogen ratio.

You can also see from this example how anything over 100mg weekly injected runs the risk of having excess exogenous testosterone in your body.  I would assume if you got very lean and built up some muscle you could minimize the negative impact, but I would want to work up to that and not be swamped with excess testosterone before I need it.

I hope this makes sense.  Its off the top of my head so if I have this wrong please correct me.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 09:47:33 pm by Sam »

PeakT

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Re: The Body's Natural Testosterone Production Levels
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2013, 10:44:04 pm »
Split this out cuzz Sam was, I believe, postulating how many men on injections overaromatize.

And it's kind of an interesting theory.  I think it is supported by the fact that almost every guy on cypionate injections at HRT clinics end up on Armidex.  Now many of them can reduce their dose and/or even go off of it.  But, still, one can't help wonder.

I have to do a little more research on this one...
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: The Body's Natural Testosterone Production Levels
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2013, 10:44:04 pm »


alienshadow

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Re: The Body's Natural Testosterone Production Levels
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 04:25:29 am »
I think my dr over loads me with 2mls every 2 weeks.. I still don't really get all this tech talk. I need to research more I guess.. I do know so far I haven't really noticed any changes since I started injections. I have only had 5 shots however.
I have had symptoms since Sept 2011..
Blurry vision
Off feeling (brain fog) no spinning just off
Total T levels 185 with androgel 189 on shots now 5-30-13
Total T Level as of July 23rd.. 637
Still no E2 testing.

Ken

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Re: The Body's Natural Testosterone Production Levels
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 09:17:06 am »
I think my dr over loads me with 2mls every 2 weeks.. I still don't really get all this tech talk. I need to research more I guess.. I do know so far I haven't really noticed any changes since I started injections. I have only had 5 shots however.

I agree that your dr is over doing it with 400mg/2weeks.  Just as an example consider this: I know guys that are basically steroid users in the gym and they are doing 400mg to 500mg per week.  Now this is twice what you are doing but keep in mind these guys likely have T levels 3 to 4 times what the normal optimal number is.

As I've mentioned to you before, I strongly suggest you have your dr give you 100mg to 150mg per WEEK.  400mg in one dose can bring all sorts of issues with E2, not to mention wasting T.

Good Luck
Age: 52
Wt: 210lb
Ht: 6'1"
BF% 12.5

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Re: The Body's Natural Testosterone Production Levels
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 09:17:06 am »


alienshadow

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Re: The Body's Natural Testosterone Production Levels
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 11:21:22 am »
Ken I will do my friend.. I am hoping that E2 has been my issue for almost 2 yrs. I was lucky to even be tested for testosterone to begin with I had to beg for that test took over a year to get it..

I was told if I could get an erection then my hormones where fine. I do not have issues with getting an erection but my number where low. So I don't know could be barking up the wrong tree I guess I am lost as what to do to get myself back feeling good again..
I have had symptoms since Sept 2011..
Blurry vision
Off feeling (brain fog) no spinning just off
Total T levels 185 with androgel 189 on shots now 5-30-13
Total T Level as of July 23rd.. 637
Still no E2 testing.

PeakT

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Re: The Body's Natural Testosterone Production Levels
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2013, 11:34:29 am »
I am seeing, although not from any authority sites, that testosterone production is about 6-7 mg daily.  Anybody else have additional information?
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Ken

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Re: The Body's Natural Testosterone Production Levels
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2013, 12:52:59 pm »
I am seeing, although not from any authority sites, that testosterone production is about 6-7 mg daily.  Anybody else have additional information?

Sounds about right.  I know for example that the most typical Axiron daily dose is 60mg.  However keep in mind that the going theory on average absorption is about 10% which puts the daily dose at 6mg.

 
Age: 52
Wt: 210lb
Ht: 6'1"
BF% 12.5

Quincy

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Re: The Body's Natural Testosterone Production Levels
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2013, 01:39:11 pm »
Something else to consider,  if the average person produces between 5-7mg of endogenous testosterone per day then over the course of a week a healthy person would have used somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-50mg of testosterone.  This would be used to maintain a healthy balance of testosterone, dht and estrogen.

A 100mg injection gives you about 50mg of exogenous testosterone to play with in the first week and 25mg in the second week.   If you are on biweekly injections you can start to feel hypogonadal again.  If you are on weekly then the second week your body has about 75mg to play with and you start getting pushed into the "optimized" ranges.  Now if you are a high converter to estrogens or dht you may need a little more to reach a good balance and/or arimidex to block some estrogen conversion, but proper use of arimidex should also let you inject less than you otherwise  would to reach a good testosterone to estrogen ratio.

You can also see from this example how anything over 100mg weekly injected runs the risk of having excess exogenous testosterone in your body.  I would assume if you got very lean and built up some muscle you could minimize the negative impact, but I would want to work up to that and not be swamped with excess testosterone before I need it.

I hope this makes sense.  Its off the top of my head so if I have this wrong please correct me.

I've often wondered about that myself; in regards to exo T vs endo T. If a normal healthy male is producing 7mg/day (50mg/wk) and has a serum T level of say 800, why does a person taking 100mg/wk often have levels lower than that? It is almost as if it isn't as efficient converting into serum T.

Given a half life of 7 days for cypionate, whatever you are injecting will ramp up and reach equilibrium at twice that amount of T deposited in the muscle tissue. To keep that equilibrium, your body will metabolize the weekly dosage. So for example if you inject 100mg/wk, after about 6 weeks you will reach a level of 200mg (on shot day) with 100mg being absorbed into the blood stream weekly. 14mg/day exo vs 7mg/day endo.

Evidently there is more involved to the process.
56yo, Pre  T level 239
Previous dosage 180mg T.cypionate weekly BW @ 1056 on 7th day of cycle
Previous dosage 100mg T.cypionate weekly BW @   414 on 7th day of cycle

Current dosage  140mg T.cypionate weekly

alienshadow

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Re: The Body's Natural Testosterone Production Levels
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2013, 01:43:18 pm »
Way out of my league. I don't have a M.D. and I refuse to try to research and find answers on this topic. You get to much confusion with everything you read on the net or in a medical journal..
I have had symptoms since Sept 2011..
Blurry vision
Off feeling (brain fog) no spinning just off
Total T levels 185 with androgel 189 on shots now 5-30-13
Total T Level as of July 23rd.. 637
Still no E2 testing.

Sam

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Re: The Body's Natural Testosterone Production Levels
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2013, 02:16:11 pm »
I think it has to do with diffusion characteristics, insitu degradation or metabolism into non-absorbable fractions as well as possible issues with ester cleavage. i.e your not getting 100% of your injection as functional testosterone.

The half-life estimates are very rough numbers I bet.  After the injection the tissue and blood vessels immediately around the area get swamped with testosterone and then as it disperses an equilibrium is reach, but that is dependent on the surface area of the injected material and the concentration so you get a peak around 72hours after and then the serum concentration starts to go down.  The amount of blood vessels in the tissue probably are a factor in this also.  So theoretically a person injecting in the thigh or butt may experience slightly different serum concentration curves.  (probably not noticeable though)

My guess is the data would look something like this for a 100mg injection with a starting baseline and the amount of Exo T measured in the blood stream.  Keep in mind its a continuous process, kind of like compounding interest so there is some overlap on days.

For 200mg/ml 0.5ml injection

Day 1 - 5mg
Day 2 - 7mg
Day 3 - 10mg
Day 4 - 10mg
Day 5 - 9mg
Day 6 - 8mg
Day 7 - 7mg
Day 8 - 6mg
Day 9 - 5mg
Day 10 - 4mg
Day 11 - 3mg
Day 12 - 2mg
Day 13 - 2mg
Day 14 - 1mg
Day 15 - 1mg
etc etc


A 100mg/ml solution 1 ml injection would probably be a more gradual ramp and decline.   There is also a limitation to how much of any single shot of exo testosterone will probably be additive to future shots and I would bet after 2-3 halflives it would be inconsequential due to other degradation process's turning it into waste.

I am not an expert at this, but I do have a chemistry background and this kind of just makes sense to me.  I would welcome someone more experienced than I to shoot holes in this and help bring better clarification.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 08:45:55 pm by Sam »

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Re: The Body's Natural Testosterone Production Levels
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2013, 02:16:11 pm »