Arginine, Grape Seed Extract or time released arginine? erection help..

[nynicky]

Hey everyone -- First of I just want to thank you guys for reading my post and I'm glad there's a site like this that exists on the internet for many of us that suffer from issues with hormones, libido, etc.. My question is if anyone has ever used Arginine with Grape Seed extract?  I recently read that grape seed extract is pretty much the same thing as pycnogenol.  (plus its a lot cheaper)

I bought 1000mg arginine and 250mg grape seed extract and I am planning on taking them twice per day to help boost my nitric oxide.  I wanted to know if anyone has tried this?  There's a lot of information out there saying that taking regular l-arginine will get metabolized fast and we are all wasting our money.. However other information I read discusses about how arginine/grape seed or arginine/pycnogenol can boost nitric oxide and is great for erectile health.. so what gives? 

From my understanding it seems the grape seed activates the enzyme needed to produce/increase nitric oxide so wouldn't that decrease the need for a "time-released" arginine?  after all the stuff seems pretty expensive.. let me know if anyone has any information regarding this..

i am going to try 2g arginine and 500mg of grape seed per day for a couple weeks and see how it goes.. if anyone wants me to post my progress i will.. i am 30 years old and on TRT.. about 200mg per week test CYP.  i feel great and my libido is "there" but my erections don't really stay hard consistantly and my orgasm's aren't that great.. my estrogen is fine and everything else is in check.. this pretty much leads me to believe i have low NO.. eventually i am going to get the new saliva test strips and test it, but right now its cheaper to do a trial and error run.. thanks for all the help guys!!

[Festus]

I would add l-citrulline to your list. I think it works better than l-arg or grape seed for erections and I notice the difference when I stop the L-cit and pycnogenol. I take the others you're taking but for other reasons as they all seem to be healthy supps. Also, if you are not already very lean, I would go on a fat loss program. I noticed a good improvement when I first cut my carbs and then again another bump up hormonally about 2 months into my program. I am not on any form of TRT and have even stopped dhea for now, so it is a natural response...

[PeakT]

Hey everyone -- First of I just want to thank you guys for reading my post and I'm glad there's a site like this that exists on the internet for many of us that suffer from issues with hormones, libido, etc.. My question is if anyone has ever used Arginine with Grape Seed extract?  I recently read that grape seed extract is pretty much the same thing as pycnogenol.  (plus its a lot cheaper)

I bought 1000mg arginine and 250mg grape seed extract and I am planning on taking them twice per day to help boost my nitric oxide.  I wanted to know if anyone has tried this?  There's a lot of information out there saying that taking regular l-arginine will get metabolized fast and we are all wasting our money.. However other information I read discusses about how arginine/grape seed or arginine/pycnogenol can boost nitric oxide and is great for erectile health.. so what gives? 

From my understanding it seems the grape seed activates the enzyme needed to produce/increase nitric oxide so wouldn't that decrease the need for a "time-released" arginine?  after all the stuff seems pretty expensive.. let me know if anyone has any information regarding this..

i am going to try 2g arginine and 500mg of grape seed per day for a couple weeks and see how it goes.. if anyone wants me to post my progress i will.. i am 30 years old and on TRT.. about 200mg per week test CYP.  i feel great and my libido is "there" but my erections don't really stay hard consistantly and my orgasm's aren't that great.. my estrogen is fine and everything else is in check.. this pretty much leads me to believe i have low NO.. eventually i am going to get the new saliva test strips and test it, but right now its cheaper to do a trial and error run.. thanks for all the help guys!!

Great idea.  Basically, I gave a lot of coverage to Pycnogenol simply because it has a legitimate study or two (if you include Prelox) showing improvement in erectile dysfunction. 

Now, as far as I know, grape seed extract does not have such a study, but I agree with you that it would very likely help many men with E.D.  Here is an example of one such study:

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2004/147439/abs/
"Effect of Grape Seed Extract and Quercetin on Cardiovascular and Endothelial Parameters in High-Risk Subjects"

Also, I agree with Festus that Citrulline is much more potent and it appears to be safer from the herpes standpoint from what we are hearing from Neogenis.  I have had no shingles outbreaks with Citrulline and have been taking a couple grams/day for the last several weeks.  Some guys really respond to small amounts of arginine though.  Here is my caution with Arginine:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/herpes_arginine

If you try GSE with Citrulline or Arginine, let us know how it goes.  In the meantime, I am going to put a grape seed extract page on my To Do list.

[nynicky]

Thank you both for the recommendations.  I am going to first try the l-arginine and see if I can mimic the study but using GSE.  I will definitely keep you guys posted as it is only DAY 2.  Once again, taking 1g of arginine and 250mg of GSE 2x per day.  Spread out over about 6-8 hours.  On another note I just read a book by Dr. Al Sears and he discusses when first taking l-arginine to boost NO one should take 5G for 2 weeks and then 2.5g thereafter. 

Have you guys heard of anyone doing this?  I really didn't know you could "load" arginine like other supplements.. I would think that after awhile of taking 2-3g it would have the same effect... if that's the case anyway.. Maybe it would work faster, but I am not so sure.  Lucky for me I do not have HSV or any of the diseases that could make arginine a problem.. Another reason why I am going to give it a shot.

Let me know what your thoughts are on the increased arginine dose at first?  I am going to first try what I am doing for a week or two and if I don't see too much improvement I will bump to about 3G of arginine a day, but keep my GSE at 500mg.  I plan on taking the supplements long term anyway.

Thanks again!

[PeakT]

They have done many studies with dosages even over 5 g to boost growth hormone, etc.  There was a study on cardiac patients tho where six if the participants died, so I can't recommend a higher dose withou clearing it thru yourdoc.

Also, be aware that arginine has had lackluster results in the studies.  The ED study used it strictly to make sure precursors were supplied but not to boost NO directly from what I understand.

[nynicky]

Wow -- people died?  That's pretty crazy.. I will have to look into this and ask some Doctors about the study.. That sounds like something else was going on.. Maybe a blockage somewhere and the arginine exacerbated the problem.. I will probably only do a max of 3G per day and then do some testing in another month.. Have you ever used any of the neogenesis products?  I am really curious about their test strips..  So far for the past 2 days I haven't had any negatives but only positives.  I have been having "clearer" thinking and more energy.  And its only been 3 days.  Plus I have been on a low dose of 2G per day.. It looks like here is definitely a connection somewhere if I am responding so quickly.. I know it's not a placebo effect too because I am very sensitive when taking supplements.. I know my body pretty well and if anything changes I am aware of it - especially since I had a hormonal imbalance for so long.  Well I will keep you posted.  Can't wait to see if this works as well as Pyc and Arginine.

[nynicky]

Hey Peak --
I almost forgot to ask you.. Can LOW NO cause sleep apnea or is it usually the other way around?  Sleep Apnea causes low NO?  The reason I ask is because when I first went to a doctor years ago he asked me if I had sleep apnea based on my numbers.. But I never had any real sleep issues that I was aware of.. Never snored, gasped for air.. However I would wake up very tired a lot.. but that has since subsided since TRT/diet change. 

I am also wondering if excessive physical stress.. Like life stress can lower NO.. I did read your article about burns and stress from excessive working out -- but I was wondering more on a psychological level if that could deplete NO.. I know I have so many questions and I do apologize but It seems I am really on to something here with my current health.    Let me know if you have any recommended reading for sleep apnea and lowered NO being caused by psychological stress/etc... Thanks!!

[nynicky]

Some more info I have found on GSE which leads me to believe it will work the same as Pycnogenol.. See link: 

http://yourhealth.tripod.com/main/grapefact.htm

"Although most Pycnogenol™ is sold in 20 mg capsules in the U.S., doctors who are recommending it to their patients will tell you that they get the best results when they recommend a dose of 20 mg per every 20 lbs of body weight, or approximately 150 - 200 mg per day. That is the precisely the same dose that is recommended in France for the Grape Seed Extract."

"Pycnogenol™ has an 85% concentration of Proanthocyanidin, the active molecule that makes it effective and powerful. Grape Seed Extract has a 95 % concentration of the very same Proanthocyanidin bioflavanoids. The two extracts are nearly identical, except that Grape Seed Extract has more of the active principle. Both products produce incredible results as testimonials for both indicate. The name has become a matter of contention as many scientists feel that Pycnogenol™ is a scientific term and should therefore not be used as a trademark."


To me, seems like GSE might even work a little better than pycnogenol.. I am getting excited now

[PeakT]

Some more info I have found on GSE which leads me to believe it will work the same as Pycnogenol.. See link: 

http://yourhealth.tripod.com/main/grapefact.htm

"Although most Pycnogenol™ is sold in 20 mg capsules in the U.S., doctors who are recommending it to their patients will tell you that they get the best results when they recommend a dose of 20 mg per every 20 lbs of body weight, or approximately 150 - 200 mg per day. That is the precisely the same dose that is recommended in France for the Grape Seed Extract."

"Pycnogenol™ has an 85% concentration of Proanthocyanidin, the active molecule that makes it effective and powerful. Grape Seed Extract has a 95 % concentration of the very same Proanthocyanidin bioflavanoids. The two extracts are nearly identical, except that Grape Seed Extract has more of the active principle. Both products produce incredible results as testimonials for both indicate. The name has become a matter of contention as many scientists feel that Pycnogenol™ is a scientific term and should therefore not be used as a trademark."


To me, seems like GSE might even work a little better than pycnogenol.. I am getting excited now

Let 'er rip then...

[nynicky]

Will do.. Hey Peak -- did you see the question about NO/sleep apnea?  Sorry I made a couple posts.. I am still learning how to use the forum   (Its above)

[PeakT]

Will do.. Hey Peak -- did you see the question about NO/sleep apnea?  Sorry I made a couple posts.. I am still learning how to use the forum   (Its above)

I saw one about NO and sleep and responded I believe.  Will try to check later though to see if I missed something.  Family has me hoppin' today...

[nynicky]

No problem!  Take your time, enjoy your family!

[Roger_Dalton]

See: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120926091744.htm

"One of the agents studied by the researchers was forskolin, an herbal compound that has been used to relax muscle and widen heart vessels. They found that forskolin also ramps up nerves and can help keep nitric oxide flowing to maintain an erection"

How about Forskolin? Anyone have feedback/experience with this?

[PeakT]

See: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120926091744.htm

"One of the agents studied by the researchers was forskolin, an herbal compound that has been used to relax muscle and widen heart vessels. They found that forskolin also ramps up nerves and can help keep nitric oxide flowing to maintain an erection"

How about Forskolin? Anyone have feedback/experience with this?

I cover (briefly) Forskolin here at the bottom of this page:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Herbs

It's potent stuff, but I feel that it is understudied and underused, so I'm cautious about it.  But I tend to be very cautious about supplements.

[nynicky]

I was also wondering if you or anyone else knows why the hell people "load" arginine.. almost like creatine..  Dr. Al Sears recommends taking 5g a day for a few weeks and then drop it down to 2g as a maintenance dose.. I can't find any information on "why" someone would load arginine like creatine?