HCG only for HH?

[399]

i like probably many people on this forum had unusually low sex drive for several years, and kept getting told my T was "normal" consistently testing in the 320-330 range.  i finally did research and discovered that is not at all normal for someone in their 30s who is otherwise very healthy and who lifts heavy weights 3-4x/week.  so i went to an endo and got complete tests w/pituitary MRI done and he agreed my T was low.  he asked what treatment options i was interested in, and i said HcG looked interesting to me because i still wanted to have children.  he said there is also clomid to consider.  when i went back for results he said i had "abnormally normal" LH levels, in other words that i should have a natural pituitary response to produce more LH given my testosterone levels and that was not occurring.  otherwise my system was functioning fine.  he even diagnosed me with HH as a result.  (i also have a weak but not nonexistent sense of smell, and my belief is that i have a milder form of kallmans syndrome, as although i went through puberty on time, i never grew much bodily hair and was a very scrawny kid until i hit the weights hard in my 20s.  i think it doesn't get called kallmans by the medical profession because it is rare and doesn't get diagnosed since puberty occurs) 

however, in spite of this after talking about clomid my first time there, he said he would give it to me if i wanted but that wouldn't boost libido so wanted me to instead try an antidepressant wellbutrin that improves libido in many cases.  i was surprised so just took it, but the more i thought about it the idea of being on an antidepressant really bothers me.  in addition i am 2 weeks in and other than a suppressed appetite have noticed nothing.  when he gave it to me he said direct T would definitely boost libido but he didnt want to give it to me, and that he didn't like to prescribe it alone or with HcG to someone my age because you can't ever get off of it.

the more i think and read about it the more HcG sounds very appropriate for my situation.  i like the idea of directly addressing my weakness, LH, and producing my own natural T.  i probably would not even need a high dosage as i am likely to respond well given my health status and that my testicular volume is ok.  it seems like i would be back into balance.  given that there appear to be no downsides in trying, i think if i absolutely demanded it i could get this guy to prescribe it to me without T, or else i could find someone to.  its combining it with T he said he really didn't like to do.

when i read online message boards like this one for people's experience with HcG, everyone either seems to be combining it with T, or else a steroid user coming off cycle.  My question is, does anyone have experience with HcG alone, or any knowledge there?  and does it boost libido or is it like clomid that doesn't by itself?  can anyone tell me any reason it wouldn't be a good idea or worth trying given my situation?  and if i can't get this guy to prescribe it any advice on finding someone who would?  i am in the Washington, DC area if anyone has a specific name to recommend.  Thanks

[feelgood]

i'm interested in what you learn...i'm in somewhat similar situation in that i have low T (upper 200s, so even lower than yours), yet am otherwise really healthy and work out, lift, etc. My sex drive is not where it should be at all, i believe.

And like you, my wife and i still plan to try and have kids (i'm a little late to the game), so for the next few years, TRT doesn't really seem to be an option for me.

My doctor gave me Clomid over a month ago. I think the deal with Clomid is, most guys don't really "feel" anything on Clomid (i.e. it doesn't really address libido much, or energy, etc), yet it really does work to increase T levels. Some men *do* feel a big uptick in energy, libido, etc. while on it, but most don't. That's what a urologist said on a website, and my doctor hinted at that, but i think i forgot that he mentioned it.

In fact, in the book "Testosterone For Life" Dr. Morgentaler says this. It's a quandary they don't really understand. T levels go up, but the symptoms of low T don't really go away (in most cases). He said guys on Clomid then will go on TRT, and bang, symptoms are gone and they are gold. He said it seems to be a function of the TRT hitting the brain better.

I had sort of either glossed over this, or didn't really know such things in March, so i had higher hopes for Clomid in terms of addressing things like libido. I don't really *feel* different/better on it, and i'm about 5 weeks in. So, i guess i should temper my expectations, and at least be hopeful and happy if it does increase my T level, so that in turn will take care of the other dangers/issues of low T (like artery stuff, bone loss/density, etc). At least i assume that's the benefit of taking Clomid. I will be back into my doc on Tues, and i'm going to ask him more.

So back to your original question. Will HCG raise libido, or act "better" than Clomid? (i.e., raise T AND help with symptoms of low levels). I have no idea. If it did, i'd probably be willing to take the 3 times a week injections - i'm sure they are those little prick needles. Like you, hoping to hear from others. I'll also be reporting back on my Clomid journey.

[PeakT]

when i read online message boards like this one for people's experience with HcG, everyone either seems to be combining it with T, or else a steroid user coming off cycle.  My question is, does anyone have experience with HcG alone, or any knowledge there?  and does it boost libido or is it like clomid that doesn't by itself?  can anyone tell me any reason it wouldn't be a good idea or worth trying given my situation?  and if i can't get this guy to prescribe it any advice on finding someone who would?  i am in the Washington, DC area if anyone has a specific name to recommend.  Thanks

HCG will raise testosterone just by itself for a man with secondary hypogonadism, i.e. low/lowish LH/FSH.  In fact, you have to worry about overdoing things and possible aromatization. 

You do not have to take it with clomid and many men trying to boost their testosterone without shutting off fertility do so.

Yes, HCG will boost sex drive generally, but you have to give it time (as long as there are no other underlying medical conditions, etc.)

[PeakT]

i'm interested in what you learn...i'm in somewhat similar situation in that i have low T (upper 200s, so even lower than yours), yet am otherwise really healthy and work out, lift, etc. My sex drive is not where it should be at all, i believe.

And like you, my wife and i still plan to try and have kids (i'm a little late to the game), so for the next few years, TRT doesn't really seem to be an option for me.

My doctor gave me Clomid over a month ago. I think the deal with Clomid is, most guys don't really "feel" anything on Clomid (i.e. it doesn't really address libido much, or energy, etc), yet it really does work to increase T levels. Some men *do* feel a big uptick in energy, libido, etc. while on it, but most don't. That's what a urologist said on a website, and my doctor hinted at that, but i think i forgot that he mentioned it.

In fact, in the book "Testosterone For Life" Dr. Morgentaler says this. It's a quandary they don't really understand. T levels go up, but the symptoms of low T don't really go away (in most cases). He said guys on Clomid then will go on TRT, and bang, symptoms are gone and they are gold. He said it seems to be a function of the TRT hitting the brain better.

I had sort of either glossed over this, or didn't really know such things in March, so i had higher hopes for Clomid in terms of addressing things like libido. I don't really *feel* different/better on it, and i'm about 5 weeks in. So, i guess i should temper my expectations, and at least be hopeful and happy if it does increase my T level, so that in turn will take care of the other dangers/issues of low T (like artery stuff, bone loss/density, etc). At least i assume that's the benefit of taking Clomid. I will be back into my doc on Tues, and i'm going to ask him more.

So back to your original question. Will HCG raise libido, or act "better" than Clomid? (i.e., raise T AND help with symptoms of low levels). I have no idea. If it did, i'd probably be willing to take the 3 times a week injections - i'm sure they are those little prick needles. Like you, hoping to hear from others. I'll also be reporting back on my Clomid journey.

Clomid is a little more problematic with some guys.  The theory is that some of the estrogenic effects can lower libido in spite of the fact that testosterone is going up.  But clomid can raise libido in some men.

[FightLowT]

Been there done that .. Had levels there and probably still do on many days..Have taken HCG and currently take Welbutrin..I'm another poster boy for low testosterone despite uncanny odds due to lifestyle history. Welbutrin, truthfully if anything seems to have lowered my sex drive. I've been taking it now for roughly 5 weeks and honestly cannot wait to taper off of it. I took 150 mgs for about two and a half weeks and now am taking 300mg once daily for about the same period of time. I still cry almost everyday at least once and yeah I've lost some weight but the little edge this drug takes off of my depression is hardly anything to write home about. Just for the record guys with Low T we just don't seem to respond to anti-depressants like guys with healthy androgens do. I mean let's face it. All it is doing is masking or providing a band-aid to a greater underlying problem that obviously needs treatment. To be straightforward what is usually causing the depression in us low T guys is really only partly due to LOW T but probably equally if not more important a lack of DHT aromatization from lack of Free T.

HCG did seem to improve my sex drive after about 4-6 weeks of usage, however the 500 IU three times a week I was taking made my estrogen spike to 70 pg/ml.. Usually guys are best off between 20-30 pg/ml. So there was no aromatase inhibitor implementation during this period of time which would have probably had much more favorable results. There is a young man on youtube that goes by the name LOWTGUY (Spencer) who is Canadian and pretty much experienced the same kind of Estrogen spike I did until his endocrinologist presribed 1mg of arimedix a week divided into two .5 mg doses. ..Spencer has been very inspiring throughout his journey in dealing with his hypogonadism both in keeping a positive attitude and allowing everyone to share in his experience. I highly recommend looking up his youtube channel videos.

I have taken nolvadex to recover my HPTA after using the HCG therapy and will now admittedly state that I have taken Clomid as well that a guy I work with who also suffers from  low T gave me. I decided to take the clomid at 100mg daily for two weeks to see if there may be a chance the drug would kick back in the older androgen production I benefitted from in my mid twenties but alas it didn't work. I will tell you however that the clomid made me absolutely the biggest emotional wreck I have ever been in my life. I would tear up as many as 5-10  times day at work and would often have to go to the bathroom just to get my composure back after a substantial crying fit. Not fun guys..So yes clomid can have very significant estrogenic effects on us males.

As far as the endo thinking you have to remain on any TRT program or HCG combination for life is incorrect..I know I know..FightLOWT you must think you are some kind of doctor is what many of you are saying...Yeah well guys let me ask you a valid question. Haven't most the doctors you have seen or been to for help have seemed, how can we say, unimpressive to say the least in their knowledge of this disease? If not then why are you here? Ok.. I had a feeling you would understand..But the bottom line is with proper Selective estrogen receptor modulators and other ferility promoting drugs most men's HPTA's can in fact be restored.  In other words you can go back to feeling as crappy as you did before TRT if you so choose to...  Sound promising? Errr..Yeah I guess...NO!



The gold standard for TRT or what is considered cutting edge at the moment appears to be 70-150 mg testosterone cypionate per week, 250-500 iu HCG per week, and 1-2 mg arimedix. Dr. John Chrisler and Dr. Eugene Shippen, two of the countries most heralded TRT physicians both prefer transdermals over injections merely for the added DHT conversion which is so key to libido. Let's face it..A horny man is a happy man and a man who is putting that libido to good use is an even happier man..

[399]

thanks for the responses.  question for fightlowt, why couldnt you just reduce the dosage of hcg?  were you getting your test monitored while taking it?  did you get a good test response in addition to the higher estrogen or was it all just converting to estrogen?  thanks

[FightLowT]

Thats a difficult question to answer. The lab the doctor used who prescribed the hcg hadsomething like ng/ml instead of ng/dl..When I noticed I was having problems back last March I had initial T readings around 290-360 ng/dl. The first time I had labs taken with the doctor who prescribed the hcg was 498 ng/ml..So I take it there is a rather significant discrepancy between the conventional ng/dl reading and his ng/ml lab. With that said I went from 498 ng/ml to 701ng/ml..Bear in mind the first lab was taken in the morning and the 701 lab after several weeks of hcg was taken in the evening after work around 4:30 pm. It might be safe to say I could have had possibly 100-150 ng/ml higher in the morning. It's speculative only because I don't know the correct math and how to apply the molecular weight of testosterone via these different labs to determine the ng/dl conversion from ng/ml. But if you compare common ng/dl readings I had during this time and ng/ml readings I had you could assume I may have had levels in the 600 ng/dl range perhaps in the morning.

As far as limiting estrogen aromatization with hcg dosage, one could probably stimulate this kind of production over their baseline testosterone levels with maybe 300-400 IU rather than the 500iu..The doctor wanted me to use 2000 iu 3x a week.  . I decided to play it safe and use what is considered the maximum safest dose which is regarded by many doctors as 500iu and is supposed to provide plenty of stimulation. I did not want to risk leydig cell desensitization which could possibly produce primary hypogonadism. The bottom line is that yes I did have improved libido and erections but the etrogen also I feel took away a substantial benefit the increase in testosterone provided.

I hate repeating things from other posts because it seems I'm beating things in the ground, but it bears importance that guys do not place miracle hope on HCG therapy alone. Although many of us may in fact have testes that still work and will make higher amounts of T when stimulated, it may not be enough without added supplemental testosterone either by gels/creams or injections thrown into the mix. I say this because stimulating the testes in such a way is like boring out a 4 cylinder engine and asking it to do what a V8 can do. Even though our condition may be predominantly secondary, there is still a reason behind it which is either congenital, nervous system based, systemic of other health issues, or more acurately idiopathic in which our bodies simply no longer produce sufficient androgens for whatever reason and this is the reason why added T supplementation may be necessary.

[feelgood]

i'm interested in what you learn...i'm in somewhat similar situation in that i have low T (upper 200s, so even lower than yours), yet am otherwise really healthy and work out, lift, etc. My sex drive is not where it should be at all, i believe.

And like you, my wife and i still plan to try and have kids (i'm a little late to the game), so for the next few years, TRT doesn't really seem to be an option for me.

My doctor gave me Clomid over a month ago. I think the deal with Clomid is, most guys don't really "feel" anything on Clomid (i.e. it doesn't really address libido much, or energy, etc), yet it really does work to increase T levels. Some men *do* feel a big uptick in energy, libido, etc. while on it, but most don't. That's what a urologist said on a website, and my doctor hinted at that, but i think i forgot that he mentioned it.

In fact, in the book "Testosterone For Life" Dr. Morgentaler says this. It's a quandary they don't really understand. T levels go up, but the symptoms of low T don't really go away (in most cases). He said guys on Clomid then will go on TRT, and bang, symptoms are gone and they are gold. He said it seems to be a function of the TRT hitting the brain better.

I had sort of either glossed over this, or didn't really know such things in March, so i had higher hopes for Clomid in terms of addressing things like libido. I don't really *feel* different/better on it, and i'm about 5 weeks in. So, i guess i should temper my expectations, and at least be hopeful and happy if it does increase my T level, so that in turn will take care of the other dangers/issues of low T (like artery stuff, bone loss/density, etc). At least i assume that's the benefit of taking Clomid. I will be back into my doc on Tues, and i'm going to ask him more.

So back to your original question. Will HCG raise libido, or act "better" than Clomid? (i.e., raise T AND help with symptoms of low levels). I have no idea. If it did, i'd probably be willing to take the 3 times a week injections - i'm sure they are those little prick needles. Like you, hoping to hear from others. I'll also be reporting back on my Clomid journey.

Clomid is a little more problematic with some guys.  The theory is that some of the estrogenic effects can lower libido in spite of the fact that testosterone is going up.  But clomid can raise libido in some men.

can't say my libido is lower, can't say it's higher....if it did lower, and it turned out there was an estrogenic effect, they would prescribe something to take care of that, right? see this is why i really want my blood work done!

[399]

just a quick update, saturday night i couldn't sleep at all in a way i hadn't experienced possibly ever, so i immediately stopped the wellbutrin.  i just got off the phone with the endo and i told him i wanted to try hcg and was surprised at how receptive he was.  he said he'd prescribe me 100 iu 3x/week.  that seems lower than what most people are taking, but with something like this i'd rather err on the low side than the high side, so i am ok with that.  as i said i want to still have children one day so don't want to risk any damage there.  will keep everyone updated on how it goes.

thanks for pointing out the lowtguy videos.  he and i appear to have the exact same condition, lifelong secondary hh with similar test levels in the low 300s, and he also used only hcg with no test so a lot of his comments were helpful for me.  some of the things he mentioned that are caused by low childhood t levels, longer than average legs, wiry lanky build, and longer but thinner than average penis i hadn't heard of as relating to low t, but i share all of those things.  he said he's taking 400iu/3x week, but again i am not going to worry about that for now, i can figure out how well i respond to it through blood testing and ask for a higher dosage if necessary.

[PeakT]

With hcg you want to err on the side of caution, so that makes sense...

[399]

so i got my hcg today and went to the doctor to have him show me how to inject it.  its funny, i picked this guy out because he's young, is 2 blocks from my office, and advertises the hip implant testosterone on his website.  but it's abundantly clear from talking to him that i am the first person he has ever prescribed hcg to.  he mixed the stuff up in front of me to show me how to do it, and then when i asked if it had to be refrigerated he said he didnt think so, then read the label and said oh yeah i guess you do, but stuff like this doesn't go bad quickly.  so i hope the 25 minutes it took me to get home and get it in the fridge didn't do any damage.  he was also surprised the label said to do 500-1000 iu/dose when he read it, but based on other people's experience that sounds way too high anyway.

my question is, and i asked him and he said it didnt matter but what he clearly meant was he didnt know, is what time of day is best to inject it.  he did the first one in the office, but for the future does that make a difference?  he also read the label to tell me to do it intramuscularly, i am planning to do that unless anyone tells me the other way is so much better.  thanks

[FightLowT]

No need for intramuscular..Just alcohol swab an area on your stomach, grab a bit of belly flesh, and inject it subcutaneously. You will yield the same result and less hassle of IM. You can use either 25 gauge or insulin gauge which I believe are 31 gauge. It's likely your testes will respond based on your age and levels. Not many guys our age (early 30's) are primary and we still have a bit of reserve capability in our testes. How much response you get from it will be interesting to know and thus this amount of response will also be a marker for the chance of increased estradiol. Talk to the doctor about this and ask if he would be willing to prescribe an aromatase inhibitor like arimedix or at least generic anastrozole since it's the same thing and much cheaper. If he won't then PM me and I can discuss with you some other options. There is simply no excuse to allow E2 to go uncontrolled and if it does it takes away the desired response from the hcg. Many times an AI will actually increase serum testosterone levels as well which is definately going to make the most of the increase in T the hcg will provide. One interesting AI that many doctors don't prescribe often which produces very favorable results ( more on that later) is called aromasin or exemestane.  This one will actually lower E2 levels much more effectively than arimedix but also adds the benefit of lowering SHBG levels and this in turn will make more testosterone unbound or bioavailable( more free T=what we want) . What dosing regimine is the doctor recommending? He doesn't sound like he knows very much about it ,but at least he has an open mind  ( man isn't that a rare luxury). Most of the time due to the half life HCG mono therapy is administered three times per week Mon. Wed. Fri. How many iu's were you going to use? Honestly I would do no less than 300 and no more than 500. You may feel some effect in a month's time or as little as two weeks perhaps depending on how you respond. Again PM me if the doctor has any reluctance to write an AI script if your blood work turns up high E2.  Best of luck to you...

[399]

he actually prescribed me 100 3x/week, but i think he was just guessing.  he seemed really surprised when he saw the label and it said 500-1000.  the thing is he prescribed me 10000iu, which i will only use a quarter of at 100iu by the time i have to throw it out.  yet another sign that he has no experience with it.  so i am thinking of self-prescribing more a 200-300 dosage at first just to see if i get a response, since it will go bad anyway.  i want to err on the side of too low, but it seems most people cut back their dosage once it gets going.  100iu might work as a maintenance dosage, but probably not on the initial ramp.  i have a follow up with the doc in 6 weeks and am going to get labs done before going in.  i noticed on my lab results he never tested estradiol.  i mentioned to him when we were talking today that the most common problem people talk about on message boards who take it is too much estrogen, just to plant the seed.  i actually ordered some home saliva testing kits because i feel i am a little more on my own on this one so want to monitor myself closely.

i dont believe i am primary and am expecting a good strong response to this, but you never know i guess.

he had me do the injection in the thigh muscle, and honestly the needle was so small i didnt even feel it.  so its not harder to do it that way, i think ill stick with that unless another way is a lot better.  isn't it that if you do it into the muscle it releases into the bloodstream more slowly than if you do it into fat?

thanks for the offer of help.  i'll see how it goes in the next few weeks and if any adjustments are necessary.

[PeakT]

I can only tell you that your dosage is in the ballpark of what the steroid guys do for what is worth.  I'll try to find a little better source for you. 

But I want to go back to something far more important:  don't you want a doc that really knows what he's doing?  HCG is like nitro - you really need someone who is going to carefully monitor you.  You should be self-monitoring.  It's easy to push T too high.  It's easy to push E too high.  You need a variety of things monitored besides just hormones as well:  red blood cell counts and prostate just for starters.  This is new place for a rookie...

[399]

i absolutely agree with you, i just dont know where or how to find someone experienced with this.  i found criteria somewhere, cant remember if it was this board or another, that said look for a young doctor, as they'll be more open minded, with experience prescribing this stuff, which i thought based on his advertising of T pellet implants on his website took care of.  i had no idea hcg was such a foreign thing, or that an endocrinologist wouldn't know a lot about it but now i have learned.  he mentioned to me yesterday a urologist friend called him the other day asking if 1000iu 3x/week was the right dosage, and he told him that was way too high.  but its a case of the blind leading the blind on that one.  not sure what to do other than keep the dosage on the low side and see how i respond in 6 weeks.

back to my original question, does anyone know if it matters what time of day you inject it?  thanks