Dr. Crisler - Is HCG Monotherapy Really as Good as HRT?

[PeakT]

Dr. Crisler shows just how much of a pioneer he was in this paper:

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19

where he talks about using HCG with HRT and how he does it.  My clinic follows his recommendations almost exactly in this regard.

And he talks about something I have noticed myself:  HCG Monotherapy just does not have seem to have the same "Shazam!" benefits as standard HRT.  He writes:

"While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values."

Now why this is just does not make sense.  And notice that he says that even if plasma levels are the same on HCG Monotherapy versus HRT, usually the man will feel better on HRT.  It really does not make sense, but I have seen this on the forum.  The guys on HCG Monotherapy are rarely excited about it but a significant percentage of men on cypionate just love it like myself.  (Certainly not everyone.)

Agree?  Disagree?

[coulrophobia]

Dr. Crisler shows just how much of a pioneer he was in this paper:

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19

where he talks about using HCG with HRT and how he does it.  My clinic follows his recommendations almost exactly in this regard.

And he talks about something I have noticed myself:  HCG Monotherapy just does not have seem to have the same "Shazam!" benefits as standard HRT.  He writes:

"While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values."

Now why this is just does not make sense.  And notice that he says that even if plasma levels are the same on HCG Monotherapy versus HRT, usually the man will feel better on HRT.  It really does not make sense, but I have seen this on the forum.  The guys on HCG Monotherapy are rarely excited about it but a significant percentage of men on cypionate just love it like myself.  (Certainly not everyone.)

Agree?  Disagree?

280iu hcg 3 times a week on .6 mg of arimidex a weekly puts me at 680 test, 2 lh (bottom end of normal is 1.5), and SEVENTY SIX (76) estradiol. It is going to be impossible for me to feel good with an estradiol of 76...

I am about to start 500iu of hcg 3 times a week with 1.4mg of arimidex weekly. Will report back my blood work in two weeks.  On another side - my doctor mentioned to me to be careful about doing everything Dr. Crisler does because he claimed that Dr. Crisler is getting dangerously close to losing his medical license.

[PeakT]

I am about to start 500iu of hcg 3 times a week with 1.4mg of arimidex weekly. Will report back my blood work in two weeks.  On another side - my doctor mentioned to me to be careful about doing everything Dr. Crisler does because he claimed that Dr. Crisler is getting dangerously close to losing his medical license.

Well, anyone who thinks outside the box is probably always skating on thin ice.  And I want you to think about something:  Dr. Crisler is usually VERY cautious from what I have seen.  For example, he insists on low dose HCG and low dose Clomid.  I don't know if he actually pioneered the trifecta protocols, but he was certainly one of the early apostles.  And this protocol has been proven by literally 100,000's of men around the country.

Almost every guy that I know that has felt really good on HRT follows the same kind of protocol that Dr. Crisler follows.  Also, he popularized subQ and our senior member, Sam, used that very successfully.  Low SHBG guys need some help and this is what did it for him.

So I certainly don't know about all of Dr. Crisler's business or medical dealings, but I do know I'm very thankful for what he has done for a ton of us out there.  If I could give him and Dr. Shippen a Men's Nobel Health Prize, I would do it!

[davie12]

FYI...Dr Shippen was the one who pioneered the sub-q T injection method. When I was in his office, he told me that after I mentioned the Dr Crisler video demonstrating how to inject using that technique. He mentioned it modestly though...he's a very humble guy and isn't the kind of doctor who is into self promotion.

Also, re: HCG and how one feels on it...I've never used testosterone before. However, if you dial in your HCG/Arimidex protocol it can make you feel as good as before (you had a T deficiency). The problem I've found is that it is a difficult balancing act to get consistent benefits. I've tracked dosages and how I've felt. However, you can get a massive erection, get aroused easily on one day and then fall off the wagon the next. It seems that creating such a sharp spike in testosterone in such a short amount of time is unnatural. The body wasn't designed to work that way. I'm sure one's protocol can improve with time and practice and careful monitoring of how one feels.

[PeakT]

FYI...Dr Shippen was the one who pioneered the sub-q T injection method. When I was in his office, he told me that after I mentioned the Dr Crisler video demonstrating how to inject using that technique. He mentioned it modestly though...he's a very humble guy and isn't the kind of doctor who is into self promotion.

Also, re: HCG and how one feels on it...I've never used testosterone before. However, if you dial in your HCG/Arimidex protocol it can make you feel as good as before (you had a T deficiency). The problem I've found is that it is a difficult balancing act to get consistent benefits. I've tracked dosages and how I've felt. However, you can get a massive erection, get aroused easily on one day and then fall off the wagon the next. It seems that creating such a sharp spike in testosterone in such a short amount of time is unnatural. The body wasn't designed to work that way. I'm sure one's protocol can improve with time and practice and careful monitoring of how one feels.

I was hoping you'd jump in there.  Well, I have a question about that.  Does HCG really create a big spike?  Isn't that the purpose of the subQ - to flatten that out?

[Sam]

I would assume since it's an aqueous medium it's gonna be absorbed much faster than an oil SubQ.  Probably.  I would,imaging though the halflife plays into this.   It would ramp up swamping LH receptors and then ramp down.   There are probably ways you could think about optimizing this also.

[davie12]

FYI...Dr Shippen was the one who pioneered the sub-q T injection method. When I was in his office, he told me that after I mentioned the Dr Crisler video demonstrating how to inject using that technique. He mentioned it modestly though...he's a very humble guy and isn't the kind of doctor who is into self promotion.

Also, re: HCG and how one feels on it...I've never used testosterone before. However, if you dial in your HCG/Arimidex protocol it can make you feel as good as before (you had a T deficiency). The problem I've found is that it is a difficult balancing act to get consistent benefits. I've tracked dosages and how I've felt. However, you can get a massive erection, get aroused easily on one day and then fall off the wagon the next. It seems that creating such a sharp spike in testosterone in such a short amount of time is unnatural. The body wasn't designed to work that way. I'm sure one's protocol can improve with time and practice and careful monitoring of how one feels.

I was hoping you'd jump in there.  Well, I have a question about that.  Does HCG really create a big spike?  Isn't that the purpose of the subQ - to flatten that out?

Well, HCG has a short half life (like a day and a half or something like that). And while you're on it you're not producing LH so it's your only source of LH. Inevitably, injecting yourself causes a noticeable boost the day you use it, especially when you've mastered how to time the Arimidex properly. I'm not complaining necessarily. After all, I'm thankful such a medication even exists. It's just that it doesn't mimic very closely how the body produces testosterone. I don't think my point really is about whether it's sub-q or IM as a method of delivery. It's more about the fact that the body was designed to produce 7-10mg of T daily or whatever the normal functioning male body amount is. Then with a healthy functioning liver, estrogen would be excreted properly through the P450 liver enzymes. Everything is in balance with this system and the proper T:E ratio is continually maintained in this way as T & E are being processed the way the body intended. The HCG & Arimidex combo helps a lot...don't get me wrong. It's just not any kind of permanent solution or even medium-term solution.

[PeakT]

The HCG & Arimidex combo helps a lot...don't get me wrong. It's just not any kind of permanent solution or even medium-term solution.

So where are you headed then?  Are you thinking of going to HRT?  Or are you hoping for some new kind of therapy to come out such as the oral testosterone?

[davie12]

The HCG & Arimidex combo helps a lot...don't get me wrong. It's just not any kind of permanent solution or even medium-term solution.

So where are you headed then?  Are you thinking of going to HRT?  Or are you hoping for some new kind of therapy to come out such as the oral testosterone?

Well, I am doing a lot of things such as diet, exercise, supplements and am thinking of doing a couple of cycles of Clomid again after I've boosted my metabolism some more. I am off of HCG and in a transition phase and I've actually had some night-time erections and am fully alert and have energy throughout the day. I am not doing poorly by any means, but I am not back to normal yet. I imagine also it takes time for LH to fully bounce back. Yet a lot of this is probably for another thread at some point. Keep in mind my situation is more like some of the guys who post here who had some kind of acute incident that caused a hormonal problem (ie. a drug, adrenal crash, etc.)...not like some of the guys here who have suspected they've had hormonal problems for years and years.

[PeakT]

Well, I am doing a lot of things such as diet, exercise, supplements and am thinking of doing a couple of cycles of Clomid again after I've boosted my metabolism some more. I am off of HCG and in a transition phase and I've actually had some night-time erections and am fully alert and have energy throughout the day. I am not doing poorly by any means, but I am not back to normal yet. I imagine also it takes time for LH to fully bounce back. Yet a lot of this is probably for another thread at some point. Keep in mind my situation is more like some of the guys who post here who had some kind of acute incident that caused a hormonal problem (ie. a drug, adrenal crash, etc.)...not like some of the guys here who have suspected they've had hormonal problems for years and years.

Gotcha.  Okay, so you're hoping for a restart then essentially.  Well, good luck and, if you can pull it off, you'll be our first...