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Author Topic: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale  (Read 32468 times)

avacado

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Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« on: August 14, 2012, 06:44:14 am »
First off i'd just like to say great website and forum, its another outlet and resource on my quest to figure out whats going on.

I'm currently 25 years old, 6'0", about 185lb, around 12% bf? (visible abs). over a year ago in the midst of my first graduate job, the stress factor seemed like it was getting to me and my libido was almost gone, after a hard days work I would get into bed and struggle to stay awake, let alone sex with the gf, which caused some issues.  I eventually faced up and sought help from our wonderfull health service here in the UK.  My job was bad, i had to get up real early so sleep was deprived (6-7 hours max), was running on coffee most of the time, and it was in a cold meat factory involving alot of labrous activitys. as well as 1.5 hours commuting every day on a high speed motorway

The doc seemed to think it was stress management issues, but reluctantly sent me for a thyroid test as well as serum testosterone.  When I phoned and was was told the results were all "normal", with my little understanding at the time of what that could mean ,i assumed my problem was stress related and just tried to work really hard on my diet and supplements.

Fast forward to april, I finally get a new job: way more money, no commute, longer time to sleep, no need for coffee, office full of women, I think great finally things will change.  I've been there 3 months now and I love the job but still feel that constant fatigue and cloudiness, and still signs of lower T, as in i'm not waking up with morning wood as often and if I do, it disappates quickly.

I went to the doc and decided to ask what my measurement was last year, got the papers and it was 14.1!! nmol/L  This was a different doctor who printed the results and he was useless and didn't want to know.

so that is like 414, crazy when I think its 12nMol/L that guys are considered problematic over here.  Especially as my diet was good and and not overweight. my serum T4 was 16.1pmol/L, serum TSH 2.9miu/L

Anyway now I know this, I almost want to seek out another test just to see if all the changes i've made have ramped up production, and if indeed my problem is psychological or what.

My level isn't low enough to warrant TRT and that is not what I want, but i think its fair to say i'm on a low enough end that I should regularly monitor the level.  I'm heading back to the doctor this week and i really think getting another test a year on shouldn't be an unreasonable request?  its just really hard to ask for as they don't want to know

But from what i'm reading 414 is pretty poor on this forum?  This is a guy who has a degree in nutrition, eats good fats, lifts 3-4 times a week for 45 minutes, recovers well etc.  I'm just worried that if my level is this low then by the time i'm 35 i'm easily be in the 300s.


As a side note, i've had groin pain for the last 9 months, again the first doctor dismissed it as a strain, but it never really went aaway, i've been back a few times thinking it may be a varicocele, the last doctor i saw said oh i think it's cysts, both of your epididymis are inflamed.  This hasnt gone away, I can feel the hard lumps on the top of both testiscles.  The lack of formal diagnosis is distressing, the pain isn't bad but will it get worse? who knows if its causing the low T.  I'm thinking i need to demand a referral to a urologist but its like here in the UK they only care if you are in really bad pain?

THanks for reading

PeakT

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2012, 02:16:17 pm »
Many young guys write in in the 400's and they usually sound like us older guys in the 300's and 200's:  they're really struggling.  Remember:  your testosterone was probably double that not too long ago, so that's a big adjustment and it can start to affect everything.

The good news is that  you're doing a lot of things right and started young.  As you know, the great majority of the population does not.  You've just got one issue on the table.

And, yes, you should get the potential varicocele checked out.  It could make a difference.  Type in 'varicocele' into both this forum's and my site's search and you'll get some interesting information about the subject.

One word of advice:  young guys seem to REALLY stress over low testosterone.  Try not to panic.  Get the varicocele checked and read through my site and see if you can find any of the lifestyle changes that may boost that a little.  Varicocele surgery can sometimes raise testosterone based on some research, but some docs say 'no' - don't know why. 

Between the two it's possible you could get your testosterone into more reasonable territory.  Let us know what you think...





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And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2012, 02:16:17 pm »


avacado

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2012, 06:41:41 am »
Thanks for the reply, its really great you have such information available and answer all posts.  I did ramble a bit in my post, had to get it done before work!

I've got my doc appointment booked for the 30th, probably the 5th time i've been in for problems relating to my aching groin.  At least it gives me time my head to go over what i'm going to say to insist  I i get to urologist for an actual explanation of whats going on.  It sucks in this country you get taxed to HELL for public services yet when you really need them for the first time in our life it is a journey.  Also I think  I need to insist on another blood draw, even if they'll only measure total T ( a full blood panel would be better but i'll probably have to go private for that)

Luckily I'm in good shape so have no ED symptoms, is mainly the desire thing thats an issue, though may be conpounded by being in the same stressfull relationship for 4.5 years! maybe my body is telling me to get out there while im young.  I believe in pychological and environmental factors playing a big part in T, as said by Mike Mahler, but those I think are the hardest to change.  One good thing about all this is any healthy measures to raise T will no doubt bring a host of other benefits to the body (IE the fact I used to never eat nuts, green smoothies, cabbage and broccoli,)

I'm considering incorporating pomegrante juice and beetroot juice for maxium vitality, do these have to be drunk near activity for the effects or can they just be incoprated any time in the day?  if so how big a serving?

PeakT

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2012, 01:53:03 pm »
It sucks in this country you get taxed to HELL for public services yet when you really need them for the first time in our life it is a journey. 

It is my sincere belief that the government, given a wide array of policy choices and plans for implementation, will always choose the path most expensive, incompetent and causing the greatest long term damage.

Yeah, I'm a little jaded...
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2012, 01:53:03 pm »


PeakT

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2012, 01:54:23 pm »
I believe in pychological and environmental factors playing a big part in T, as said by Mike Mahler, but those I think are the hardest to change. 

Did you read my interview with Mike Mahler?  The guy is a pioneer:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Mike_Mahler_Interview
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

PeakT

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2012, 01:57:25 pm »

I'm considering incorporating pomegrante juice and beetroot juice for maxium vitality, do these have to be drunk near activity for the effects or can they just be incoprated any time in the day?  if so how big a serving?

I can't emphasize this enough:  eat and drink good stuff that heals your arteries, increases blood flow and lowers your blood pressure throughout the day.  This is when you'll see and feel the difference.

Speaking of blood flow, watch out for saturated fat and refined carbs before activity...
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

feelgood

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2012, 01:59:06 pm »
It sucks in this country you get taxed to HELL for public services yet when you really need them for the first time in our life it is a journey. 

It is my sincere belief that the government, given a wide array of policy choices and plans for implementation, will always choose the path most expensive, incompetent and causing the greatest long term damage.

Yeah, I'm a little jaded...

but wait, at the Olympic opening ceremonies they actually had a whole portion of the event spectacle dedicated to the NHS!? so it MUST be great, yes? :) haha... (did anyone see that? yes, it's cool to celebrate the fact that everyone is covered, but it seemed like some commercial placement for the gov't!)

Sounds like avacado would disagree. Probably safe to say there are pros and cons with both countries' systems.

PeakT

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2012, 02:13:38 pm »

Sounds like avacado would disagree. Probably safe to say there are pros and cons with both countries' systems.

I think the bottom line is that no matter what country you live, you should stay OUT of the health care system!

Seriously, the goal is to try to match up your lifestyle with the supercultures that have almost no heart disease, cancer or autoimmune disease:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Review_Healthy_At_100
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

feelgood

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2012, 02:45:00 pm »

Sounds like avacado would disagree. Probably safe to say there are pros and cons with both countries' systems.

I think the bottom line is that no matter what country you live, you should stay OUT of the health care system!

Seriously, the goal is to try to match up your lifestyle with the supercultures that have almost no heart disease, cancer or autoimmune disease:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Review_Healthy_At_100

that's the best advice ever. preventative, integrated medicine - starting with yourself.


avacado

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 06:34:43 am »
It sucks in this country you get taxed to HELL for public services yet when you really need them for the first time in our life it is a journey. 

It is my sincere belief that the government, given a wide array of policy choices and plans for implementation, will always choose the path most expensive, incompetent and causing the greatest long term damage.

Yeah, I'm a little jaded...

but wait, at the Olympic opening ceremonies they actually had a whole portion of the event spectacle dedicated to the NHS!? so it MUST be great, yes? :) haha... (did anyone see that? yes, it's cool to celebrate the fact that everyone is covered, but it seemed like some commercial placement for the gov't!)

Sounds like avacado would disagree. Probably safe to say there are pros and cons with both countries' systems.

The principle is a good idea I suppose, but the fact every county almost operates like a different business means its a real lottery as to what care you get and even what treatment options are available, which is not fair at all in my opinion.  Just from this site you can see UK guys posting and see the different attitutus our GPs have to giving bloodtests of reffereals to urologistions/endos.


Yes Peak, i read the mike mahler interview on his site and thats how I found this resource, I'm trying to educate myself as much as possible as there are many strategys out there I can see.


Doc appointment still not for 2 weeks so but will keep this thread as an update on if I can get more bloods drawn, even if its only total testosterone

FightLowT

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 07:25:39 pm »
Quote
Many young guys write in in the 400's and they usually sound like us older guys in the 300's and 200's:  they're really struggling.  Remember:  your testosterone was probably double that not too long ago, so that's a big adjustment and it can start to affect everything.
Quote

Lee I've read that before on various places here on your site and was wondering if there really is some empirical data or bloodwork to back this up. I know you are the kind of guy who does not make blanketed statements without something to back them up, but this makes me very curious as to what my levels really might have been in the past. I made a post about what speculative levels were for other forum members some time ago. You obviously know as I have stated time again that I at 33 also feel like crap in the 350-400 ng/dl range and within the past two years have definately seen my vitality and libido take a sharp downward turn. This makes me wonder if I really was at one time in the 700-800 range or if I was just a guy in the 500's. I can't imagine that 100 ng/dl less would be the sole reason for why I feel they way I do and it probably bears relevance that in order for me to feel the way I do and in such a quick period of time no less that I very well may have been substantially higher than 500ng/dl. There is a fellow on youtube that recently got a serum total taken at 32 and he was a horrific 162ng/dl and he claims that several years ago he got tested and was close to 900ng/dl. This is a staggering, shocking reduction and it deserves expert analysis. Something has badly gone wrong with this guy's endocrine system. 

If his claims were in fact true in the case of his previous bloodwork then this is obviously evidence that young guys in the 300's 400's  HAVE NOT just slowly dropped to those areas over years from somewhere reasonably close to what they used to be but as you stated more than likely a decrease to roughly half. The fact that young guys suffer in these areas seems to indicate that their levels were once much higher as opposed to guys in their 40's who gradually feel like crap in the 300's.

No one would ever guess by looking at me that I have low testosterone, low libido, low motivation, and depression. I am the seeming picture image of health. I have made some very positive strides forward in improving my body composition and now weigh 215 pounds of which abdominal muscles are slowly starting to show. I will be honest it's been a hell of a rough ride though getting there starting at 245 pounds. Again this just goes to show that you doctors should not judge a book by its cover.

PeakT

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 08:23:20 pm »
Quote
Many young guys write in in the 400's and they usually sound like us older guys in

Lee I've read that before on various places here on your site and was wondering if there really is some empirical data or bloodwork to back this up. I know you are the kind of guy who does not make blanketed statements without something to back them up, but this makes me very curious as to what my levels really might have been in the past.

I should be more clear when I see this.  It's really based on the many emails and forum posts that I go through and not on any study.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

PeakT

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 08:31:08 pm »
Many young guys write in in the 400's and they usually sound like us older guys in I made a post about what speculative levels were for other forum members some time ago. You obviously know as I have stated time again that I at 33 also feel like crap in the 350-400 ng/dl range and within the past two years have definately seen my vitality and libido take a sharp downward turn. This makes me wonder if I really was at one time in the 700-800 range or if I was just a guy in the 500's. I can't imagine that 100 ng/dl less would be the sole reason for why I feel they way I do and it probably bears relevance that in order for me to feel the way I do and in such a quick period of time no less that I very well may have been substantially higher than 500ng/dl. There is a fellow on youtube that recently got a serum total taken at 32 and he was a horrific 162ng/dl and he claims that several years ago he got tested and was close to 900ng/dl. This is a staggering, shocking reduction and it deserves expert analysis. Something has badly gone wrong with this guy's endocrine system. 

If his claims were in fact true in the case of his previous bloodwork then this is obviously evidence that young guys in the 300's 400's  HAVE NOT just slowly dropped to those areas over years from somewhere reasonably close to what they used to be but as you stated more than likely a decrease to roughly half. The fact that young guys suffer in these areas seems to indicate that their levels were once much higher as opposed to guys in their 40's who gradually feel like crap in the 300's.

No one would ever guess by looking at me that I have low testosterone, low libido, low motivation, and depression. I am the seeming picture image of health. I have made some very positive strides forward in improving my body composition and now weigh 215 pounds of which abdominal muscles are slowly starting to show. I will be honest it's been a hell of a rough ride though getting there starting at 245 pounds. Again this just goes to show that you doctors should not judge a book by its cover.

I agree with you that you probably much higher T not too long ago.  One way to test that theory, of course, would be get your testosterone up to those high levels, but that may not be something you feel is appropriate for a variety of reasons.

One other observation:  I have noticed that many men describe a rapid loss of testosterone.  I would love to talk to a researcher about that.  To me it seems like it would have to be something secondary-related.  But I can tell you that quite a few guys will write in and say, I was fine until six months ago", etc.  It's almost like their hormones got thrown off of a cliff.  But I've never been able to find a study that really sheds any light on the subject...
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

avacado

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2012, 05:35:01 pm »
Just an update on my post:

Finally got to do doctors appointment, first call of business was the nut pain i'd be getting on and off.  Doctor still thinks everything seems fine and seems to think its psychological, but I managed to at least get booked in for an ultrasound in 6 weeks or so.  Is it bad I kind of hope they find a varicocele or something, at least then I know I won't be going crazy.

I tried to get onto the topic of T, but bringing up 2 issues at an appointment seems impossible, even though IMO they are linked.  He just told me my level of 14 on a scale of 8-30 was very good, that testosterone improves with age, and that he gets people coming in with "1 and 2" on the scale all the time.

So i'm stuck on this front, I really dont think I can afford a private blood draw but I feel its essential to my health to get  a snapshot to see where  I am at, and to taylor my supplementation.  Saliva tests are an option but i'm reading too many reports of it not being reliable, plus I cant really compare it to my serum level last year.


I feel getting the ultrasound is a positibe step, but after this I may have to change surgeries, though it's impossible to know that all other doctors won't be exactly the same?

 
BTW the  doctor asked me if I am on roids due to being "muscular", so this probably worked not in my favour. hmm.

PeakT

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2012, 05:54:06 pm »
He just told me my level of 14 on a scale of 8-30 was very good
That's because he's not the one with low testosterone.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: Another young guy on the Low end of the T scale
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2012, 05:54:06 pm »