What's the Optimal T/E2 Ratio?

[bzarfas]

The chain of TRT clinics in SW Florida wanted to hit me with 200mg Test Cypionate at my first "exam" following my labs. As I've read elsewhere on this forum, that's pretty clearly a technique to give us guys a rush and hook us in, and that makes a great deal of sense (commercially).  Their method of dealing with elevated hematocrit was to have us donate blood once in a while.  This center seemed shady - I never even met with a doctor, just a barely trained PA - and that's why I sought out an actual doctor specializing in HRT.

So let's say that I donate blood regularly, monitor my BP, and scale back the dose to deal with symptoms rather than withdraw entirely.  Where's the problem?  I don't run four companies, but I am athletic and I wouldn't mind a performance hit. 

And of course I can't help but derail a thread...so, maybe my T/E ratio is part of my problem?

Free T     597
Estradiol   34 pg/mL

See, I also get confused about what to do
so I tried to put a guide about how to guide through this site
https://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=2769.msg25625#msg25625

first thing I'd do is
get a health bmi<25/bodyfat <15%
then eat right, workout, destress get your hormones checked
so you have done all that, maybe,. so go fix your T/E ratio and make your life better, assuming you don't feel 100%

 I've stated in numerous threads I'm not even sure I am doing the T/E ratio right
I think you find your T/E ratio by ((total T) /(estradiol))
597(is that total or just free?)
597/34=17.5
 PeakT says you want 30-50
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Estrogen_Ratio

If I figured it out right, you have a T/E ratio that's half what you want it to be
my Dad who is 2x your age, and I'm trying to get on TRT has one thats about 7(10pts less than yours)
https://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=4125.0

I have a T/E ratio of about 12
but I'm changing that by lowering the E, which will increase the ratio faster than increasing the T

[PeakT]

I don't have an answer for this one and don't know of any study that has any kind of a definitive answer.  If you dig up something, let me know.

Here's a little background info for those who don't fully understand what bzarfas is referring to:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Estrogen_Ratio

[bzarfas]

I don't have an answer for this one and don't know of any study that has any kind of a definitive answer.

definitive answer about what?

[sockmonkey]

Thanks for breaking it down, bzarfas (and I believe you've nailed the math).  Is your dad really 104?  I asked my doc about my E2 and he shrugged it off.  We did not discuss T/E ratio.  He is a friend and colleague of Dr. Crisler but he's not a builder and he's not really coming at HRT from that perspective.  He seems to think all my problems are thyroid and psychology.  Time may tell.

So maybe I'll pursue ways to lower my E2, then. 

[PeakT]

Thanks for breaking it down, bzarfas (and I believe you've nailed the math).  Is your dad really 104?  I asked my doc about my E2 and he shrugged it off.  We did not discuss T/E ratio.  He is a friend and colleague of Dr. Crisler but he's not a builder and he's not really coming at HRT from that perspective.  He seems to think all my problems are thyroid and psychology.  Time may tell.

So maybe I'll pursue ways to lower my E2, then.

Here are some of the ways that guys have discussed on the forum:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/natural_estrogen_blockers

[bzarfas]

Thanks for breaking it down, bzarfas (and I believe you've nailed the math).  Is your dad really 104?  I asked my doc about my E2 and he shrugged it off.  We did not discuss T/E ratio.  He is a friend and colleague of Dr. Crisler but he's not a builder and he's not really coming at HRT from that perspective.  He seems to think all my problems are thyroid and psychology.  Time may tell.

Yeah, no my Dad is about 66.  but has high E2(44), even though he's BMI is 26 and he eats ~2lbs of broccoli/day and has for years, (yes, 2 pounds)
https://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=4125.0

Here are some of the ways that guys have discussed on the forum:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/natural_estrogen_blockers

good stuff here

I wonder how accurate this about DIM
http://www.dimfaq.com/site/abstracts3.htm

[Kierkegaard]

Dunno what the ideal ratio is (I'd shoot for at least 30:1 T to E2), but I think the ratio is important, particularly in that it really determines the "ratio" of your femininity to masculinity.  I'm speaking purely theoretically here.  You can't speak of an "absolute" value for femininity or masculinity, given that each and every person has a little of both, which means it's a ratio that determines how much of one is more dominant than the other.  Now, the worst case here wouldn't be 50:50 (although that would arguably have pretty bad sides for males or females), but when both T and E approach zero, which is where I was for a few weeks after a doctor fucked up and put me on fluoxetine, which zipped my already virtually nonexistent T level, and with it my E2.  Ungodly terrible sides, including anxiety, suicidal depression, fatigue, and insomnia like you wouldn't believe. 

[sockmonkey]

I love broccoli, but I'm not going to start eating 2lbs each and every day 

I've added zinc to my fistful of daily supplements and I'll see if it helps my ratio. Not sure if I'm ready for DIM just yet, but haven't ruled it out and I like what it's done for you, Kierkegaard.  I only wish I were dealing with Total T in the 1000 range rather than my all-over-the-map variable low to mid range. At best, my T/E ratio is 17.5 (thanks again, bzarfas). At worst, it's much worse than that, most likely.  I'll know a bit more the next time I get my labs.

[Kierkegaard]

The only quibble I'd have with bzarfas's excellent points is regarding bodyfat: it's hard to lose bodyfat when your E2 is out of whack (too low or especially when too high), given how people gain fat when it's at these levels, which I think has something to do with appetite.  So I think it's best to get your E2 reeled in, both absolutely and relative to your total T level, first.

[bzarfas]

The only quibble I'd have with bzarfas's excellent points is regarding bodyfat: it's hard to lose bodyfat when your E2 is out of whack (too low or especially when too high), given how people gain fat when it's at these levels, which I think has something to do with appetite.  So I think it's best to get your E2 reeled in, both absolutely and relative to your total T level, first.

I agree, the appetite when dieting is out of control
but dieting  is still just dieting.
- And let's face it, no matter what diet you are on, that means some period of feeling hungry, deprived, etc
but you see those guys on biggest loser, etc, any diet is going to work,  using hormones to help you lose fat(which also changes hormones) is just going to make the matter worse
even if e2 is "whatever number", dieting is not going to be easy, its going to depend on your support, your determination, size of your caloric deficit, and what foods you eat(high processed carbs, vs natural stuff
and then there is a lot of other "stuff to be aware of"

I've been doing some reading/watching TV about the basics, which I think I know all about
 Ive learned a few things:

1, You are likely thirsty:
Often before you eat you've heard, "drink some water!"
I've also thought I was told this to  "fill up" on water. That is right/wrong.
Being dehydrated, doesnt mean you get thirsty, but being dehydrated can mean  you feel:
hungry
moody
doing things is harder(than compared to when you had lots of water
--this link shows that a man walking on a treadmill when he was full of water VS dehydrate, his perceived effort doubled as did his heart rate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1_i7KiTyDk



2 Hunger=low blood(not true for healthy people)
http://www.medbio.info/horn/time%203-4/homeostasis1.htm

Blood sugar levels are usually between 4.5 to 5.5 mmoles/l and swing about 10-15% around these values.  We do not normally experience low blood sugar levels.
nutritionists recommend a diet in which  between 50 and 60 % of the caloric content is contributed by carbohydrates.  However, we can exist quite well on diets containing with little or no carbohydrate.  Low starch and sugar intake does not reduce blood sugar levels:  we maintain normal blood glucose levels in spite of large variations in sugar and starch consumption


so why do you get hungry around noon if your blood sugar isnt crashing?
2 reasons"
1 your stomach is empty
-when your stomach is empty,  your body knows this, like via stretch receptors.  When your stomach is empty, if makes more ghrelin
Ghrelin is produced in the stomach, going up when you don t eat, and going down when you do eat. It also appear to interact with the same area of the brain where leptin is sending its signals
Muccioli, G. et. al. Neuroendocrine and peripheral activities of ghrelin:
implications in metabolism and obesity. European J of Pharmacology (2002) 235-
254

 
2 you are trained to eat at (*insert stimulus) lunch. Call it a Pavlovian response.  Noon time is coming, your makes ore ghrelin, more cholecystokinin, more salivia, whatever your body knows
"noon" means FOOD.
so when food time, I mean, noontime comes. you want food and are "hungry"

However, if you were to look at your blood sugar, its not gonna change much, you arent experiencing LOW blood sugar and might faint because of that, etc.
http://www.answers.com/topic/blood-sugar


It was hypothesied on "bang goes the theory" that you might feel tired post eating, not because of the blood sugar ups/downs(which isnt sigificiant )  but the insilin+other hormones flucating with the meal
flux in hormones and blood sugar is proportionate to obesitym Lean people have less flux

[Kierkegaard]

Great info, bzarfas.

[bzarfas]

Great info, bzarfas.

thanks man, we are all trying to be as healthy as we can be