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Author Topic: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?  (Read 12774 times)

DominantAndy

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Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« on: December 17, 2014, 07:28:00 am »
Okay guys, Cronos, Peak T, anyone... sort me out with a quick answer, you're all well informed on here.

Remind me again...why should we be taking flaxseed oil or flaxseed in general, when we know it to be a 'gazillion' times more estrogenic to the male body than (processed) soy?

Thank you...

TopGeek

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2014, 04:13:50 pm »
Okay guys, Cronos, Peak T, anyone... sort me out with a quick answer, you're all well informed on here.

Remind me again...why should we be taking flaxseed oil or flaxseed in general, when we know it to be a 'gazillion' times more estrogenic to the male body than (processed) soy?

Thank you...

I agree.  Anyway, who wants to go around smelling like furniture polish?
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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2014, 04:13:50 pm »


DominantAndy

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2014, 06:38:32 pm »
Heehee!
Although Regulus did provide an informed opinion (answer) to this question on the 'Omega 3' thread...I've heard that argument before...and remain unconvinced...would need to know more, so will do a bit more research.
Thx TopGeek.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 06:43:32 pm by DominantAndy »

PeakT

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2014, 07:00:23 pm »
There are lots of reasons to take flaxseed:

1.  About half of all middle-aged males already have prostate cancer nodules.  The question is whether or not these will grow and eventually metastasize.  Flaxseed has probably the best studies to date against this very common male disease and I've outlined it here:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Flaxseed_Prostate_Cancer

Also, men on HRT REALLY need to protect themselves from a rise in PSA.  If one of those prostate cancer nodules grows, even "beningly", their PSA will rise and they'll be immediately taken off of HRT.  So now you have two problems:  a growing PC nodule and abysmally low rebounded T levels.

2.  Clarence Bass has bigger arms and a better build than most of the guys on this forum half his age.  He swears that flaxseed dramatically improved his lipid profile.  For example, check out this:

http://www.cbass.com/Esselstyn.htm

" (Some fat in the diet is desirable. Adding a tablespoon of oil—olive and then flaxseed—reduced my triglycerides by half; see article 18 in our Diet & Nutrition category for the details.) "

3.  Flaxseed can help you improve your omega-3 to omega-6 ratio.  This is all important and you'll likely feel better if you have been out of line.

4.  One study noted this and significant improvements in blood sugar and insulin:

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/flaxseed-vs-diabetes/

Also, I have never heard of anyone claiming any kind of estrogenic side effect from flaxseeds.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 07:03:10 pm by PeakT »
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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2014, 07:00:23 pm »


Regulus

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2014, 07:24:40 pm »
Heehee!
Although Regulus did provide an informed opinion (answer) to this question on the 'Omega 3' thread...I've heard that argument before...and remain unconvinced...would need to know more, so will do a bit more research.
Thx TopGeek.

Reposting this from the other thread for convenience on this one:

It certainly is known that flax contains a lot of phytoestrogens, more than soy per ounce.   Though one generally consumes soy in larger quantities;   4 ounces of tofu is just good pad thai, 4 ounces of flax is hard to imagine choking down.  So I don't know if it's a seriously bigger source than soy in quantities actually likely to be consumed, but it's certainly one of the biggest if not the biggest dietary sources.

Second, I don't think the evidence is all that clear on what those phytoestrogens actually do in the body.  There is a popular opinion that they are estrogens, and so that's that.   However, it is known that they are weakly estrogenic, nowhere near as potent as actual animal estrogens.  There is another school of thought that they crowd out actual estrogens, and by running interference they actually have a net negative estrogenic effect.

We do know that meat and milk contain actual honest to goodness real animal estrogens, not this weak plant estrogen stuff, and nobody seems all too concerned about that.

The actual net estrogenic impact of phytoestrogens is not well understood.   Studies have shown that they do not lower testosterone much if at all, though what they do estrogenically has not, as far as I know, been actually studied.
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PeakT

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2014, 07:29:50 pm »
Heehee!
Although Regulus did provide an informed opinion (answer) to this question on the 'Omega 3' thread...I've heard that argument before...and remain unconvinced...would need to know more, so will do a bit more research.
Thx TopGeek.

Reposting this from the other thread for convenience on this one:

It certainly is known that flax contains a lot of phytoestrogens, more than soy per ounce.   Though one generally consumes soy in larger quantities;   4 ounces of tofu is just good pad thai, 4 ounces of flax is hard to imagine choking down.  So I don't know if it's a seriously bigger source than soy in quantities actually likely to be consumed, but it's certainly one of the biggest if not the biggest dietary sources.

Second, I don't think the evidence is all that clear on what those phytoestrogens actually do in the body.  There is a popular opinion that they are estrogens, and so that's that.   However, it is known that they are weakly estrogenic, nowhere near as potent as actual animal estrogens.  There is another school of thought that they crowd out actual estrogens, and by running interference they actually have a net negative estrogenic effect.

We do know that meat and milk contain actual honest to goodness real animal estrogens, not this weak plant estrogen stuff, and nobody seems all too concerned about that.

The actual net estrogenic impact of phytoestrogens is not well understood.   Studies have shown that they do not lower testosterone much if at all, though what they do estrogenically has not, as far as I know, been actually studied.

Lets take a step back here.  98% of our DNA (or more) matches exactly with a chimp.  Chimps are by and large plant eaters.  The lion's share of our ancestry is from plant eaters.  Plants just have a lot of phytoestrogens.

So I think it's great to be cautious, but you have to temper it with the fact that we are well-adapted to consume phytoestrogens.

All of this reminds me of all the anti-phytate research on the high fat sites that I read.  Then, about a year ago, I found out that phytate is one of the most potent anti-cancer compounds that we consume.  Now you don't want to go crazy with phytate, but, in general, the evidence shows that it's one of the most powerful tools in our arsenal actually.  And did even one of those high fat sites mention that?  Of course not! 
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DominantAndy

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2014, 07:44:42 pm »
Come now Peak T...mentioning 'high-fat' sites unnecessarily to traumatise yourself? Lol

William Wong ND, PhD, Member World Sports Medicine Hall of Fame

"Soy is everywhere, not only in soy milk, miso and tofu but since it is a cheap form of protein, soy is also found in most all prepared foods. Read the label of everything from bread to frozen meat patties. You’ll find soy. Each glass of soy milk contains the equivalent of 3 to 5 low estrin birth control pills worth of estrogen per glass (it’s in the isoflavones). In soy formula given babies the ratio is worse, there it is 5 to 8 birth control pills worth per every 8 ounces of soy formula. No wonder some girls hit menstruation at 6 or 8 and some boys grow up not knowing they are boys! But for more on that read my article “Soy The Poison Seed".

The flax oil we have been told is so good for our hearts is likely killing our testicles! The lignans of flax have the same estrogenic effect as the isoflavones of soy. So if you treasure your manhood stop eating soy both non fermented and fermented, and switch from flax oil to olive oil and cod liver oil for your lipid nutrients".

So in other words, 'you don't want to go crazy' with flax either.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 09:43:25 pm by DominantAndy »

PeakT

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2014, 08:35:24 pm »
Come now Peak T...mentioning 'high-fat' sites unnecessarily to traumarise yourself? Lol

William Wong ND, PhD, Member World Sports Medicine Hall of Fame

"Soy is everywhere, not only in soy milk, miso and tofu but since it is a cheap form of protein, soy is also found in most all prepared foods. Read the label of everything from bread to frozen meat patties. You’ll find soy. Each glass of soy milk contains the equivalent of 3 to 5 low estrin birth control pills worth of estrogen per glass (it’s in the isoflavones). In soy formula given babies the ratio is worse, there it is 5 to 8 birth control pills worth per every 8 ounces of soy formula. No wonder some girls hit menstruation at 6 or 8 and some boys grow up not knowing they are boys! But for more on that read my article “Soy The Poison Seed".

The flax oil we have been told is so good for our hearts is likely killing our testicles! The lignans of flax have the same estrogenic effect as the isoflavones of soy. So if you treasure your manhood stop eating soy both non fermented and fermented, and switch from flax oil to olive oil and cod liver oil for your lipid nutrients".

So in other words, 'you don't want to go crazy' with flax either.

Well, soy is a very big and complex subject.  I cover just some of the aspects here:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/soy_men

I personally don't consume much soy because of the above and because it is difficult to find non-GMO'd.  (The GMO form is likely hard on the gut imo.)

But, look, if you don't want to take flaxseed, that's fine.  No biggee.  But there is no evidence for any of the dramatic claims that the guy is talking about above with flax SEED.  Imo he is going to scare guys off from one of the superfoods that will help protect their erections from plaque and their prostates from cancer.   

Again, I saw warning after warning after warning about phytate.  And now the everything has completely turned around and phytates are the good guys and people are advocating having it in your diet.

Same thing:  I have seen some of those same cites talking about how fiber is so negative.  Then came along "resistant starch".  Now fiber is cool for some reason because some of the insoluble part is called a starch.  I don't get it, but anything that will get guys to eat healthy plant-based stuff makes me happy...
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 08:38:26 pm by PeakT »
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
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If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Regulus

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2014, 09:03:07 pm »

William Wong ND, PhD, Member World Sports Medicine Hall of Fame

"Soy is everywhere, not only in soy milk, miso and tofu but since it is a cheap form of protein, soy is also found in most all prepared foods. Read the label of everything from bread to frozen meat patties. You’ll find soy. Each glass of soy milk contains the equivalent of 3 to 5 low estrin birth control pills worth of estrogen per glass (it’s in the isoflavones). In soy formula given babies the ratio is worse, there it is 5 to 8 birth control pills worth per every 8 ounces of soy formula. No wonder some girls hit menstruation at 6 or 8 and some boys grow up not knowing they are boys! But for more on that read my article “Soy The Poison Seed".


Look, if you want serious science on the subject of soy phytoestrogens, here you go:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074428/

There's plenty there to scare you off of ever eating soy again.   There's plenty there to have you doing soymilk funnels. 

There are quotes like this:

" in humans, it is generally accepted that consumption of isoflavones-rich soy foods suppresses circulating estrogen and progesterone levels"

and like this:

"Some isoflavones, most notably genistein, inhibit pathways important for cell growth and proliferation, an effect which affects multiple organ systems"

There are no simple answers, the data is ambiguous.   This is not even close to a settled matter.

However, the continued existence of Asians leads me to conclude that, whether there are adverse effects or not, soy is hardly a deadly poison.  And I completely agree with Peak that our bodies evolved on plenty of phytoestrogens, so there's very good reason to think we are equipped to handle the stuff. 

All that said, if you don't want to eat flax, or soy, or anything else for that matter, that's your call.  I don't think anybody will mind.   
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 09:07:31 pm by Regulus »
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DominantAndy

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2014, 09:37:38 pm »
Regulus, your comments (to me) are so petulant and snarky...it's quite amusing to me, honestly...it's like, generally I'm talking to Peak T, who said he knew of no one who said flax was estrogenic...so I give him someone...is all it was, don't blame the messenger!...then here you are wasting your own time with your "that's your call i don't think anybody will mind" business"...as if I'm caring about what people think of me or care about anyone's condemnation!...it's so...bitchy, lol...
Sheesh! You can either ignore me next time or continue with your irritability and micro-aggression.
Anyway, end of conversation! move along...

P.S to Peak T... arrgh!... typo in my above message further up...obviously I meant traumatise, not traumarise!
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 09:50:02 pm by DominantAndy »

Regulus

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2014, 04:12:30 am »
Regulus, your comments (to me) are so petulant and snarky...it's quite amusing to me, honestly...it's like, generally I'm talking to Peak T, who said he knew of no one who said flax was estrogenic...so I give him someone...is all it was, don't blame the messenger!...then here you are wasting your own time with your "that's your call i don't think anybody will mind" business"...as if I'm caring about what people think of me or care about anyone's condemnation!...it's so...bitchy, lol...
Sheesh! You can either ignore me next time or continue with your irritability and micro-aggression.
Anyway, end of conversation! move along...

P.S to Peak T... arrgh!... typo in my above message further up...obviously I meant traumatise, not traumarise!

:-)

You asked for info about a topic (from "Cronos, PeakT, anybody" ... I'm the third guy on the list) that I'm actually pretty interested in and have done quite a bit of reading on.   I provided the best info I had.  That NIH link is the most comprehensive source I've found, seemed apropos.  Given the tone of your posts I'm kind of surprised that anything as gentle as my petulant and snarky bitchiness gave offense, but none was intended.

I'm more than happy to leave you alone Andy.   Cheers.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 04:22:55 am by Regulus »
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DominantAndy

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2014, 11:25:16 am »
Hmmm, phytates, not bad at all...Peak T you prompted me to do some research on that subject.
Scaremongering media trying to make a huge issue out of the fact that they 'bind to minerals'...possibly similar over exaggerations about flax and soy...who knows?

PeakT

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2014, 02:32:20 pm »
Hmmm, phytates, not bad at all...Peak T you prompted me to do some research on that subject.
Scaremongering media trying to make a huge issue out of the fact that they 'bind to minerals'...possibly similar over exaggerations about flax and soy...who knows?

Yes, the last 10-15 years have been a very odd time in the US health media and blogosphere imo.  You actually had lots and lots of articles out there criticizing things like fiber, many plant foods, phytates, nightshade vegetables, oxalates, etc.  When I first started studying plant foods, I cannot tell you how excited I got for one simple reason:  they are almost always so good at increasing blood flow, boosting nitric oxide and healing the lining of your arteries, etc.  They are literally an erection-boosting paradise.

Yet I was reading article after article out there about the evils of plant foods.  This was such a dichotomy, because the research showed that vegans had the highest testosterone levels and the supersupercultures were mostly plant-based.  So I felt like I was reading completely different journals or something.

Anyway, the pendulum swings back and forth and right now "plants just aren't cool."  In the US, BBQing and bacon are associated with being a guy and that will take a long time to change - cultural stuff always does.  I see some cracks in the armor, though, and perhaps this will all change over the next 10 years.  Who knows?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 02:35:18 pm by PeakT »
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pb4ugo

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2014, 07:32:08 pm »
Flax is higher in phytoestrogens than soy:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15327914nc5402_5#.VJMpvyvF-Fg

Better avoid the dark beers and coffee too.

I'll leave further debate among you on the academic worthiness of various studies. I just want to say that so much effort is put forth on this forum to feel macho and control the e2 effects that distract from that goal. Why not minimize input from the diet first?
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PeakT

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2014, 07:52:07 pm »
Why not minimize input from the diet first?

Again, I have no problem with a guy playing it safe. 

But, to answer your question, let me ask you a question:

"What bad side effects are there from eating phytoestrogens?"

I know of one potential one, but I doubt you could name any.  (You can correct me if I'm wrong.)

So think about that:  they have been study phytoestrogens for decades now and people have been consuming them for centuries, so why can't anyone name even one side effect for even a subpopulation of guys?

Now I don't consume soy, but let me play devil's advocate here:

A pro-soy male is going to tell you that soy has no effect on T and will boost nitric oxide and was consumed by the healthiest, most long-lived culture on the planet.  So what's not to like?

I mean, seriously, the Okinawans had the highest recorded senior testosterone levels on planet earth.  So isn't that an argument to consume the same levels of soy that they did?

Again, I am just playing devil advocate here to point out that the arguments for consuming soy are actually stronger than those against (assuming it is non-GMO'd and hexane-free).
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
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If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: Why Would Any Male Take Flaxseed?!?
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2014, 07:52:07 pm »