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Author Topic: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol  (Read 20310 times)

kquad

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2015, 03:29:10 am »
Another interesting find: apparently cortisol can bind (albeit weakly) to aldosterone receptors, meaning any bloating you feel from testosterone can be due (whether or not estradiol is a player or if it's "just" T) to cortisol increase rather than aldosterone.

Wow, maybe I should skip the HCG for a while. Of coarse that would effect my estradiol. I think after I get that drawn, I will stop it for a week or two. Because I retain water regardless of estradiol levels on testosterone therapy.

Kierkegaard

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2015, 03:41:19 am »
Another interesting find: apparently cortisol can bind (albeit weakly) to aldosterone receptors, meaning any bloating you feel from testosterone can be due (whether or not estradiol is a player or if it's "just" T) to cortisol increase rather than aldosterone.

Wow, maybe I should skip the HCG for a while. Of coarse that would effect my estradiol. I think after I get that drawn, I will stop it for a week or two. Because I retain water regardless of estradiol levels on testosterone therapy.

See, I'm actually thinking of starting HCG so that I can decrease my testosterone level, leading to lower free T relative to estradiol; when I try to lower my free T now too much I hit the wall of too low E2 and get symptoms. 

Either that or go back to IM injections for the same reason. 

Best thing might be just to check pregnenolone and progesterone first, though.
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2015, 03:41:19 am »


electrify

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2015, 03:57:41 am »
I have been wondering about cortisol too. On HCG mono I just had it tested and it came out to 13.3 which is not that much of an increase from a baseline of 11. Ideally should be 17-20 right?

Not sure. One brilliant poster on another board said that HCG can be helpful in increasing cortisol because perhaps LH and FSH are involved in cortisol production, and these two hormones shut down when your body is on testosterone but not HCG.

Yea thats true. It happened for me with Clomid due to the increase in LH/FSH but HCG mono at least so far does not seem to be giving the same increase. I might need to give it more time though, lately my E2 is the most difficult thing to manage though. If fixing that doesn't work then its probably the cortisol for me.
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Sighalot

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2015, 06:07:58 am »
Because I retain water regardless of estradiol levels on testosterone therapy.
Perhaps a diuretic would help?

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2015, 06:07:58 am »


kquad

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2015, 06:50:19 am »
Because I retain water regardless of estradiol levels on testosterone therapy.
Perhaps a diuretic would help?

No, I tried lasix. It came back after about 8 hours. Something in my body wants that water and it will not be deterred.

Kierkegaard

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2015, 02:59:46 pm »
Because I retain water regardless of estradiol levels on testosterone therapy.
Perhaps a diuretic would help?

For me the very moment my ring is loose and I have no water retention, I feel better.  It's a stretch, but maybe the water retention itself causes the foggy feelings I have at times.  My doc has been on me about starting a low dose blood pressure med, and agreed to try a diuretic BP med, so maybe this will be a double whammy. 
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

theturducken

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2015, 04:16:10 pm »
I'd say the water retention, if not E2, is aldosterone since it is a mineralocorticoid.  Likewise aldosterone and cortisol supposedly oppose each other or fight for the same resources.

Progesterone, which is a precursor to these, is supposed to work great as a diuretic when supped.

Just adding in what I've read/heard/think.
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kquad

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2015, 04:33:45 pm »
I have worked in the medical field as an RN for 20 years and this is getting far too complicated. However, I have to admit, if it did not make me feel poorly at times, it would be fun to figure out. I think the effect on thyroid hormones can not be ruled out, especially in my case. Hypothyroid causes water retention and it seems all the high E2 symptoms.

Kierkegaard

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2015, 05:10:50 pm »
I'd say the water retention, if not E2, is aldosterone since it is a mineralocorticoid.  Likewise aldosterone and cortisol supposedly oppose each other or fight for the same resources.

Progesterone, which is a precursor to these, is supposed to work great as a diuretic when supped.

Just adding in what I've read/heard/think.

Interesting!  Especially the progesterone.  If true this could mean I'm progesterone deficient/estrogen dominant. 
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

Kierkegaard

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2015, 05:36:25 pm »
I have worked in the medical field as an RN for 20 years and this is getting far too complicated. However, I have to admit, if it did not make me feel poorly at times, it would be fun to figure out. I think the effect on thyroid hormones can not be ruled out, especially in my case. Hypothyroid causes water retention and it seems all the high E2 symptoms.

I don't think it's too incredibly complicated.  A lot of this comes down to whether things like thyroid or estradiol "cause" water retention; my thinking is by themselves they don't, but things like aldosterone, cortisol, and possibly too-low vasopressin might be the sufficient causes, although estradiol, thyroid, etc., might be necessary ones.  There are only a few possible culprits, and if we know these we can know where to aim our guns to try and change things. 
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

Sighalot

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2015, 08:49:52 pm »
My doc has been on me about starting a low dose blood pressure med, and agreed to try a diuretic BP med, so maybe this will be a double whammy.
Im using hydrochlorothiazide and dont have  any definitive side effects, up'ed the dose last friday from 12.5mg to 25mg, had to use the bathroom 2-3 times more then usual but not felt any other effects yet but hoping, estradiol probably on the low side at the moment.

I think the effect on thyroid hormones can not be ruled out, especially in my case. Hypothyroid causes water retention and it seems all the high E2 symptoms.
You mean high estradiol causes temporary hypothyroidism?

Kierkegaard

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2015, 10:01:49 pm »
My doc has been on me about starting a low dose blood pressure med, and agreed to try a diuretic BP med, so maybe this will be a double whammy.
Im using hydrochlorothiazide and dont have  any definitive side effects, up'ed the dose last friday from 12.5mg to 25mg, had to use the bathroom 2-3 times more then usual but not felt any other effects yet but hoping, estradiol probably on the low side at the moment.

Keep us updated as your estradiol gets up there.  My hope is it's "just" the water retention that's causing other symptoms such as slight fatigue or head fog, and that getting the water retention down will take care of those things.  Probably not, but we'll see.  I just know what the moment my urine is getting clear and my ring feels not tight that I feel great: no head fog, fatigue, etc. 
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

kquad

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2015, 05:58:45 am »
Well I hope someone figures it out soon. I ballooned up again. Even a patient who saw me two weeks ago was concerned. My urine is concentrated again.  I did take the tiny dose of arimedix (1/8) a day late, but am doubtful that can do it. I will force fluids again

. The good news, with the extra thyroid meds, I feel good. Just a little tight in the lungs. It is crazy and may not be related, but when I get my TSH near normal, I retain water. Or maybe it is just a delayed response to earlier hypothyroid. Since starting TRT, I have been on a roller coaster with my TSH. I popped a lasix, it is maddening!!

kquad

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2015, 06:42:04 am »
OK K. I am reading through this again, The water retention, if caused by cortisol, would be because of high cortisol. Correct? In that case lowering or stopping the HCG might lower cortsol.

theturducken

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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2015, 01:06:50 pm »
In theory, HCG added to TRT is a great idea.  Especially for any younger guys who still want to have children (myself included).  However, anytime I add hcg, it triggers so many other mechanisms in the body that the roller coaster ride begins. 

I'm going back to basics and getting my TRT dose dialed in without hcg and see where my e2, preg, prog, dhea is after a month. 

Keep in mind hcg increaes the conversion of CHOL to Preg, and then everything else down the line.  This is a big line that is being changed and could trigger a multitude of symptoms.

Just saying, HCG could be doing more harm than help.
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Re: Still Symptoms? Maybe It's Not Just Estradiol
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2015, 01:06:50 pm »