DHEA / Pregnenolone vs HCG?

[Deaglan]

There are many guys who use HCG alongside their TRT and receive fantastic benefits; and there are others who do TRT solo. My question is how would TRT with DHEA/pregnenolone compare to doing TRT with HCG? I want to backfill the pathways that have been suppressed from TRT; however my doc isn't definite about adding HCG alongside my TRT, just yet.

[Kierkegaard]

There are many guys who use HCG alongside their TRT and receive fantastic benefits; and there are others who do TRT solo. My question is how would TRT with DHEA/pregnenolone compare to doing TRT with HCG? I want to backfill the pathways that have been suppressed from TRT; however my doc isn't definite about adding HCG alongside my TRT, just yet.

Definitely worth a shot!  As you probably know, exogenous testosterone shuts down the P450scc enzyme which converts cholesterol to pregnenolone.  Consequently, very insightful docs are down with supplementing pregnenolone to (as you say) backfill the lowered preg from exogenous T.  Some guys even supplement with both preg and progesterone, presumably because you can only do so much with supplementation and therefore a limited (but significant) amount of preg will convert to DHEA and progesterone (which will eventually convert to cortisol).  To me, the most important benefit with going HCG plus T is keeping your cortisol up to snuff; however, there are also inherent advantages to preg, progesterone, and DHEA, such as preg's ability to help cognition.

What's the difference between backfilling and HCG?  The latter keeps the P450scc enzyme afloat, yielding a more organic functioning of the pregnenolone line rather than the artificial supplementation.  HCG keeps the enzyme afloat through LH, which also means you'll get a double whammy of normally functioning preg as well as fertility.  If that's important to you.

Some guys even take HCG while supplementing with preg, because as we age our leydig cells die, so HCG loses its effect, causing less of the activation of the P450scc enzyme. 

If you supplement, go with sublingual or transdermal preg or progesterone, because with oral supplements your liver kills a lot of the bioavailability.

[Deaglan]

There are many guys who use HCG alongside their TRT and receive fantastic benefits; and there are others who do TRT solo. My question is how would TRT with DHEA/pregnenolone compare to doing TRT with HCG? I want to backfill the pathways that have been suppressed from TRT; however my doc isn't definite about adding HCG alongside my TRT, just yet.

Definitely worth a shot!  As you probably know, exogenous testosterone shuts down the P450scc enzyme which converts cholesterol to pregnenolone.  Consequently, very insightful docs are down with supplementing pregnenolone to (as you say) backfill the lowered preg from exogenous T.  Some guys even supplement with both preg and progesterone, presumably because you can only do so much with supplementation and therefore a limited (but significant) amount of preg will convert to DHEA and progesterone (which will eventually convert to cortisol).  To me, the most important benefit with going HCG plus T is keeping your cortisol up to snuff; however, there are also inherent advantages to preg, progesterone, and DHEA, such as preg's ability to help cognition.

What's the difference between backfilling and HCG?  The latter keeps the P450scc enzyme afloat, yielding a more organic functioning of the pregnenolone line rather than the artificial supplementation.  HCG keeps the enzyme afloat through LH, which also means you'll get a double whammy of normally functioning preg as well as fertility.  If that's important to you.

Some guys even take HCG while supplementing with preg, because as we age our leydig cells die, so HCG loses its effect, causing less of the activation of the P450scc enzyme. 

If you supplement, go with sublingual or transdermal preg or progesterone, because with oral supplements your liver kills a lot of the bioavailability.

Very good info Kierkegaard! Thank you!  So, because of the HPTA suppression from exogenous T, would this limit supplemental DHEA/pregnenolone from converting to their metabolites like 4-dione, progesterone, and cortisol via lack of their enzymes or in the abscence of LH?

[PeakT]

There are many guys who use HCG alongside their TRT and receive fantastic benefits; and there are others who do TRT solo. My question is how would TRT with DHEA/pregnenolone compare to doing TRT with HCG? I want to backfill the pathways that have been suppressed from TRT; however my doc isn't definite about adding HCG alongside my TRT, just yet.

This is a great question.  And the reason I say that is I have never seen anyone prove that adding HCG boosted their DHEA.  (Very few guys test pregnenalone so who knows.)  But I think the two approaches are comparable in this sense:  maybe a quarter or a half of guys that go on DHEA get cognitive/libido/mood improvements and about the same for men that add HCG.  They both affect guys mostly between the ears and they don't work with everyone.  So there are a lot of similarities in outcomes.  However, proof that they both work by the same mechanism is lacking as far as I know.

[Deaglan]

That was the line of reasoning my doc had, when I asked him about HCG.  He asked me if I'm having any atrophy, which I have not. He asked me if I plan on having any more children, and I do not. Then he asked me why do I want to use HCG, and I said to replace the precursor hormones  that TRT has reduced. Then he said why don't we just replace those hormones (DHEA/pregnenolone) instead.

[Kierkegaard]

There are many guys who use HCG alongside their TRT and receive fantastic benefits; and there are others who do TRT solo. My question is how would TRT with DHEA/pregnenolone compare to doing TRT with HCG? I want to backfill the pathways that have been suppressed from TRT; however my doc isn't definite about adding HCG alongside my TRT, just yet.

Definitely worth a shot!  As you probably know, exogenous testosterone shuts down the P450scc enzyme which converts cholesterol to pregnenolone.  Consequently, very insightful docs are down with supplementing pregnenolone to (as you say) backfill the lowered preg from exogenous T.  Some guys even supplement with both preg and progesterone, presumably because you can only do so much with supplementation and therefore a limited (but significant) amount of preg will convert to DHEA and progesterone (which will eventually convert to cortisol).  To me, the most important benefit with going HCG plus T is keeping your cortisol up to snuff; however, there are also inherent advantages to preg, progesterone, and DHEA, such as preg's ability to help cognition.

What's the difference between backfilling and HCG?  The latter keeps the P450scc enzyme afloat, yielding a more organic functioning of the pregnenolone line rather than the artificial supplementation.  HCG keeps the enzyme afloat through LH, which also means you'll get a double whammy of normally functioning preg as well as fertility.  If that's important to you.

Some guys even take HCG while supplementing with preg, because as we age our leydig cells die, so HCG loses its effect, causing less of the activation of the P450scc enzyme. 

If you supplement, go with sublingual or transdermal preg or progesterone, because with oral supplements your liver kills a lot of the bioavailability.

Very good info Kierkegaard! Thank you!  So, because of the HPTA suppression from exogenous T, would this limit supplemental DHEA/pregnenolone from converting to their metabolites like 4-dione, progesterone, and cortisol via lack of their enzymes or in the abscence of LH?

That's the theory!  And one that Crisler et al. ascribe to.  But like with Peak, it's hard to find solid evidence for it. 

[smg]

I am on Hcg/T cyp.  I supplement with Pregnenolone, DHEA and Progesterone.  I was supplementing with all three before I started my HRT.  I quit supplementing the Pregnenolone and DHEA for about 2 months and I slowly felt worse and worse. 

I started taking them again and I saw improvement.

It may be worth a look if you still don't feel right.

[PeakT]

I am on Hcg/T cyp.  I supplement with Pregnenolone, DHEA and Progesterone.  I was supplementing with all three before I started my HRT.  I quit supplementing the Pregnenolone and DHEA for about 2 months and I slowly felt worse and worse. 

I started taking them again and I saw improvement.

It may be worth a look if you still don't feel right.

How much are you taking of each and how often?

[smg]

I use about 1/4 teaspoon of progesterone cream before bedtime.  I take a 25 mg pregnenolone and 10 mg DHEA both sublingually first thing in the morning.  I am trying pregnenolone cream to see if it will work better.

[PeakT]

I use about 1/4 teaspoon of progesterone cream before bedtime.  I take a 25 mg pregnenolone and 10 mg DHEA both sublingually first thing in the morning.  I am trying pregnenolone cream to see if it will work better.

Some people say to take pregnenalone and let your body fill in what's missing, i.e. "backfilling.".  How do you come up with an all three protocol?

[smg]

The doctor I am working with starts everyone supplements, and then works her way to HRT if needed.  She started me on Preg and DHEA first.  I was feeling better but I struggled to fall asleep.  I researched the issue and discussed it with her and I tried it.  It has helped a lot.

[PeakT]

The doctor I am working with starts everyone supplements, and then works her way to HRT if needed.  She started me on Preg and DHEA first.  I was feeling better but I struggled to fall asleep.  I researched the issue and discussed it with her and I tried it.  It has helped a lot.

Noted.  One other question:

Did you test yourself to see if you were low in the above?  Or just go by faith?

[theturducken]

I used to be a big preg/dhea guy.  I have tried Crisler's TD preg, also gone with sublingual and straight up oral preg from Vitacost.  The theory is great, and I can definitely attest to all forms of Preg and Dhea having an effect of some sort. 

However, the crapshoot that comes with supping a hormone so high up as preg can have very confusing ramifications and I believe a lot of guys start on these when they are also starting TRT, thyroid, and vitamins etc; this is a problem.

For instance, I have low cortisol and adding Preg boosted my Prog and my cortisol, which gave me warmer hands, a clearer mindset, and warmer temps.  Then the Preg started raising dhea which raised e1 (not e2 for some reason).  I would have increasing ED and other issues.  The problem was that I didn't know what the reason was...was it my preg going to prog lowering dht?  Was it preg going to e1?  Was it elevated prog lowering my e2?  Was the increase of thyroid hormones upping shbg?  SO MANY FREAKIN POSSIBILITIES!!!!!

All ridiculousness aside, when starting out, I wish I had kept it simple.  Thyroid and HC first, see if hc helps, get your dosages right.  Add TRT, just T, not HCG, wait a few months, see e2.  Then maaaybe address these other areas. 

This way you have a simple, adjustable baseline of health to start from and then can easier pinpoint the cause of any issues.  We aren't the "norm" when it comes to how our bodies work and utilize hormones and nutrients.  So to say "you're low in preg, take preg" is a bit of an oversimplification, especially considering how many other hormones it can convert to, and how that conversion can be different in each of us.

[smg]

The doctor I am working with starts everyone supplements, and then works her way to HRT if needed.  She started me on Preg and DHEA first.  I was feeling better but I struggled to fall asleep.  I researched the issue and discussed it with her and I tried it.  It has helped a lot.

Noted.  One other question:

Did you test yourself to see if you were low in the above?  Or just go by faith?

She checked me for a large list of things through blood and saliva including Preg, DHEA, Prog and Cortisol.  I was low on most of them at the time.  I think the testing showed almost no measurable Preg. 

When I started working with her I was really a mess and had been struggling for 9 months.

[Kierkegaard]

I used to be a big preg/dhea guy.  I have tried Crisler's TD preg, also gone with sublingual and straight up oral preg from Vitacost.  The theory is great, and I can definitely attest to all forms of Preg and Dhea having an effect of some sort. 

However, the crapshoot that comes with supping a hormone so high up as preg can have very confusing ramifications and I believe a lot of guys start on these when they are also starting TRT, thyroid, and vitamins etc; this is a problem.

For instance, I have low cortisol and adding Preg boosted my Prog and my cortisol, which gave me warmer hands, a clearer mindset, and warmer temps.  Then the Preg started raising dhea which raised e1 (not e2 for some reason).  I would have increasing ED and other issues.  The problem was that I didn't know what the reason was...was it my preg going to prog lowering dht?  Was it preg going to e1?  Was it elevated prog lowering my e2?  Was the increase of thyroid hormones upping shbg?  SO MANY FREAKIN POSSIBILITIES!!!!!

All ridiculousness aside, when starting out, I wish I had kept it simple.  Thyroid and HC first, see if hc helps, get your dosages right.  Add TRT, just T, not HCG, wait a few months, see e2.  Then maaaybe address these other areas. 

This way you have a simple, adjustable baseline of health to start from and then can easier pinpoint the cause of any issues.  We aren't the "norm" when it comes to how our bodies work and utilize hormones and nutrients.  So to say "you're low in preg, take preg" is a bit of an oversimplification, especially considering how many other hormones it can convert to, and how that conversion can be different in each of us.

Great post!

Did you ever try just supplementing with progesterone so you would have one set less of hormones to consider as you did with pregnenolone?