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Author Topic: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism  (Read 8936 times)

werdisback

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I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« on: April 04, 2015, 09:58:23 pm »
I've read about secondary hypogonadism. And I think I have an idea why. See under times of stress GNRH production in the brain is reduced. What happens is that as cortisol( autochthonous glucorticoids) increases... the body releases GnIH. It's a survival mechanisms as cortisol is needed for the bodys function, under stress. Once threat, disease state or general threat state ends. Cortisol goes down and stops mediating GnIH(Which was recently discovered in birds).  GnIH, is sort of a switch off, of fertility hormones like lutenizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone. Which are essential for fertility and sexuality. My idea is that otherwise healthy men, who experience, depression, poor sleep(insomnia), sleep deprivation, poor nutrition, obesity, overtraining, basically being in a state of chronic stress. Put themselves at risk of GnIH production being stuck in the GnIH loop. So instead of the body returning to normalize GNRH production. The body continues producing GnIH, even after.  The feedback loop itself is stuck rather than damaged. Which is why on MRIs the hypothalamus/Pituary glands look completely undamaged. What happens isn't actual damage to the structure of those glands. But rather like throwing a monkey wrench inside of the structure. The only way to actually see hypogonadism in this case, would be to actually look into the glands activities, which MRI's can't do on a microlevel.

The other reason is pituary.  GNRH fails to stimulate the pituary gland.

Inflammatory conditions can also risk creating similar problems, by chronically adding potent glucortecorteroids to the body. So while asthma meds/inflammatory meds help with regulating a inflammatory condition, you create artificial stress in body. Inflammatory conditions are caused by lack of equilibrium of Homocysteine. Which is created by having an incomplete immune system, plus disorder susceptibilities. By adding the artificial stress response, you're not actually addressing the problem. You're just creating artificial stress modulation. You're not restoring the immune system imbalance.

Samething with TRT/HRT. You're not addressing the underlying issue. You're just replacing the capacity for production that is lost.  Which Is understandable.. since the technology necessary doesn't exist yet. My hope is that somehow stemcells can act by replacing or inducing damaged or malfunctioning cells in the hypothalamus and pituary glands to start producing GNRH.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23499786
https://www.wikigenes.org/e/ref/e/20211640.html

« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 10:08:05 pm by werdisback »

electrify

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Re: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2015, 10:44:22 pm »
I think the whole "stress leads to low T" thing is a bit overblown.

If that was the case, then everyone with depression or anxiety disorders would find themselves with secondary hypogonadism. Most  people with GAD/OCD/etc likely have T levels that are just fine.

Drugs/toxins/nutrition though all makes sense. Im not saying stress doesnt contribute but how do you know its not the other way around right.
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Re: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2015, 10:44:22 pm »


werdisback

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Re: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2015, 10:46:32 pm »


Drugs/toxins/nutrition though all makes sense. Im not saying stress doesnt contribute but how do you know its not the other way around right.

What drug and nutritional problems can cause low-t. I know that propecia, finesterid, glucortecoids, chemotherapy, and other agents can act, but not everyone who has secondary, has used them. As for nutrition, maybe over time. But I have a hard time seeing, even average western diets, being so extremely bad, they induce hypgonadism. Lots of people would be hypogondal then. Same with toxins.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 10:52:18 pm by werdisback »

Kierkegaard

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Re: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2015, 11:53:14 pm »
I think the whole "stress leads to low T" thing is a bit overblown.

If that was the case, then everyone with depression or anxiety disorders would find themselves with secondary hypogonadism. Most  people with GAD/OCD/etc likely have T levels that are just fine.

Drugs/toxins/nutrition though all makes sense. Im not saying stress doesnt contribute but how do you know its not the other way around right.

While I agree with you that it isn't the only cause (low T meaning high cortisol, therefore all anxiety and depression are reducible to low T), I'd say it could very well be a much higher number of people with depression and anxiety have testosterone problems.  Maybe not at hypogonadal levels, but there sort of biologically has to be this connection for the reasons werd expressed. 
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

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Re: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2015, 11:53:14 pm »


electrify

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Re: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2015, 12:07:06 am »
I think the whole "stress leads to low T" thing is a bit overblown.

If that was the case, then everyone with depression or anxiety disorders would find themselves with secondary hypogonadism. Most  people with GAD/OCD/etc likely have T levels that are just fine.

Drugs/toxins/nutrition though all makes sense. Im not saying stress doesnt contribute but how do you know its not the other way around right.

While I agree with you that it isn't the only cause (low T meaning high cortisol, therefore all anxiety and depression are reducible to low T), I'd say it could very well be a much higher number of people with depression and anxiety have testosterone problems.  Maybe not at hypogonadal levels, but there sort of biologically has to be this connection for the reasons werd expressed.

The thing is a lot of people with anxiety disorders can still function sexually/have good libido/etc. I see what you mean though, perhaps the T is reduced but not by the amount needed to cause sexual related symptoms. The thing is the main treatment for anxiety or depression is CBT. So does that somehow imply that CBT raises T levels when successful?

@werd
Illegal substances like ecstasy, weed, cocaine, etc can cause low T. Even a 1 time use of mdma can. There was a paper that said MDMA changes mRNA expression of the GnRH gene or something. Perhaps the other causes for secondary hypogonadism are also related to something at the epigenetic level. Some peoples genes may be more sensitive than others?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 12:08:45 am by electrify »
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Kierkegaard

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Re: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2015, 12:12:07 am »
I've read about secondary hypogonadism. And I think I have an idea why. See under times of stress GNRH production in the brain is reduced. What happens is that as cortisol( autochthonous glucorticoids) increases... the body releases GnIH. It's a survival mechanisms as cortisol is needed for the bodys function, under stress. Once threat, disease state or general threat state ends. Cortisol goes down and stops mediating GnIH(Which was recently discovered in birds).  GnIH, is sort of a switch off, of fertility hormones like lutenizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone. Which are essential for fertility and sexuality. My idea is that otherwise healthy men, who experience, depression, poor sleep(insomnia), sleep deprivation, poor nutrition, obesity, overtraining, basically being in a state of chronic stress. Put themselves at risk of GnIH production being stuck in the GnIH loop. So instead of the body returning to normalize GNRH production. The body continues producing GnIH, even after.  The feedback loop itself is stuck rather than damaged. Which is why on MRIs the hypothalamus/Pituary glands look completely undamaged. What happens isn't actual damage to the structure of those glands. But rather like throwing a monkey wrench inside of the structure. The only way to actually see hypogonadism in this case, would be to actually look into the glands activities, which MRI's can't do on a microlevel.

The other reason is pituary.  GNRH fails to stimulate the pituary gland.

Inflammatory conditions can also risk creating similar problems, by chronically adding potent glucortecorteroids to the body. So while asthma meds/inflammatory meds help with regulating a inflammatory condition, you create artificial stress in body. Inflammatory conditions are caused by lack of equilibrium of Homocysteine. Which is created by having an incomplete immune system, plus disorder susceptibilities. By adding the artificial stress response, you're not actually addressing the problem. You're just creating artificial stress modulation. You're not restoring the immune system imbalance.

Samething with TRT/HRT. You're not addressing the underlying issue. You're just replacing the capacity for production that is lost.  Which Is understandable.. since the technology necessary doesn't exist yet. My hope is that somehow stemcells can act by replacing or inducing damaged or malfunctioning cells in the hypothalamus and pituary glands to start producing GNRH.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23499786
https://www.wikigenes.org/e/ref/e/20211640.html

What is the loop?  I'm seeing how stress means increased cortisol, which means increased GnIH, which means lower testosterone.  Okay, good.  But I see no loop in this?  I only see the power of chronic stressors, which in the case of depression are sometimes external (i.e., adaptive in that a person is depressed because of stuff happening around him, e.g., someone very close dies), but for the vast majority of the time (especially with recurring depression) are internal, mediated by cognitions (thoughts, beliefs), in that a person is *really* depressed because (as Sapolsky says) the cerebral cortex (advanced thinking, meaning) is feeding false information (thoughts, beliefs) that are stressful in content to the limbic system (emotion). 

I think it would be more precise to say that people with a tendency toward depression have:

1) a genetic or environmental influence toward a deficiency with cortisol (which is essential because it *tones down* the more primary norepinephrine release, which causes the brain to release CRH to the pituitary, which releases ACTH, which in turn releases more norepinephrine, epinephrine, cortisol, and other adrenal hormones such as DHEA, pregnenolone, etc., and then the cortisol is used to "tell" the hypothalamus to tone it down on CRH --> less ACTH --> less adrenal hormones),

2) a deficiency (again genetic or environmental) with testosterone (which means higher cortisol because cortisol is inversely related to T, and therefore presumably higher epinephrine/norepinephrine because these latter hormones coincide with the release of cortisol in the adrenals),

3) a chronic stress situation that involves an adaptive depression and therefore *isn't* affected by magnified cognitions causing more depression than "necessary" (hence more norepinephrine --> higher CRH, ACTH, adrenal hormones including epi/norepi, cortisol, etc.), and/or

4) a chronic internalization of stress in terms of distorted thinking (which means the cortex is feeding the limbic system more "lies" which the limbic system knows no better about and still gets stressed over, meaning more norepinephrine to start the increase in CRH --> high ACTH, adrenal hormones, higher cortisol, and so on in proportion to [and as long as the continuation of] the original release of norepinephrine from the falsely perceived stressful event because of bad cognitions).

Or something.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 12:17:14 am by Kierkegaard »
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

Kierkegaard

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Re: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2015, 12:13:25 am »
I think the whole "stress leads to low T" thing is a bit overblown.

If that was the case, then everyone with depression or anxiety disorders would find themselves with secondary hypogonadism. Most  people with GAD/OCD/etc likely have T levels that are just fine.

Drugs/toxins/nutrition though all makes sense. Im not saying stress doesnt contribute but how do you know its not the other way around right.

While I agree with you that it isn't the only cause (low T meaning high cortisol, therefore all anxiety and depression are reducible to low T), I'd say it could very well be a much higher number of people with depression and anxiety have testosterone problems.  Maybe not at hypogonadal levels, but there sort of biologically has to be this connection for the reasons werd expressed.

The thing is a lot of people with anxiety disorders can still function sexually/have good libido/etc. I see what you mean though, perhaps the T is reduced but not by the amount needed to cause sexual related symptoms. The thing is the main treatment for anxiety or depression is CBT. So does that somehow imply that CBT raises T levels when successful?

Well holy shit, yes it would have to.  Forgive my excitement, but that would make a totally unique hypothesis to conduct a study on!
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

Kierkegaard

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Re: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2015, 12:26:54 am »
I guess there could be something approaching the loop if you had chronically elevated stress hormones, including cortisol, eventually leading to cortisol dying down from adrenal fatigue, meaning elevated hormones like epinephrine/norepinephrine but no cortisol to dampen them, thereby keeping the stressors going much longer in proportion to how severe the drop of cortisol is (and the more cortisol drops, the more epi/norepi is kept up, inviting more cortisol, which isn't provided because cortisol is dropping off rather than rising -- so maybe this is a loop of sorts).
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

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Kierkegaard

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Re: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2015, 12:29:55 am »
And I will say that I had one very insightful doctor (into testing cortisol, adrenal fatigue, etc.) who said very quickly and too confidently that my hypogonadism was "just stress."  But if that's the case, I argued back, why does my brother also have low testosterone without a stressful environment?  No response.  But he was overall the best doc I've had. 
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

Depression and anxiety guide: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Help_Anxiety_Depression

electrify

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Re: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2015, 12:50:18 am »
And I will say that I had one very insightful doctor (into testing cortisol, adrenal fatigue, etc.) who said very quickly and too confidently that my hypogonadism was "just stress."  But if that's the case, I argued back, why does my brother also have low testosterone without a stressful environment?  No response.  But he was overall the best doc I've had.

That reminds me of when I first got tested for secondary hypogonadism my FSH was really suppressed (like 0.8-1 or so). My T levels were like in the 350s and the endocrinologist was like "all normal". When I asked about the FSH the only thing they said was its all the stress causing the FSH decline. But that made absolutely no sense and this was the same endo who said "There are no studies that show T improves mood" so clearly they were ignorant.

Using the stress theory, you would see low FSH levels in anxiety disorders and depression but you don't. The endo was like oh you are in a stressful major in college which is causing all of this. But that also made absolutely no sense since my ability to handle stress was far better than most ppl before all the hormonal garbage happened. So clearly, stress contributed very little to secondary hypogonadism in my case. It was the inability to handle stress and the anxiety itself causing all the stress....

If nobody can explain it then the default answer is "Stress"
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racerx

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Re: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2015, 02:15:43 am »
And I will say that I had one very insightful doctor (into testing cortisol, adrenal fatigue, etc.) who said very quickly and too confidently that my hypogonadism was "just stress."  But if that's the case, I argued back, why does my brother also have low testosterone without a stressful environment?  No response.  But he was overall the best doc I've had.

That reminds me of when I first got tested for secondary hypogonadism my FSH was really suppressed (like 0.8-1 or so). My T levels were like in the 350s and the endocrinologist was like "all normal". When I asked about the FSH the only thing they said was its all the stress causing the FSH decline. But that made absolutely no sense and this was the same endo who said "There are no studies that show T improves mood" so clearly they were ignorant.

Using the stress theory, you would see low FSH levels in anxiety disorders and depression but you don't. The endo was like oh you are in a stressful major in college which is causing all of this. But that also made absolutely no sense since my ability to handle stress was far better than most ppl before all the hormonal garbage happened. So clearly, stress contributed very little to secondary hypogonadism in my case. It was the inability to handle stress and the anxiety itself causing all the stress....

If nobody can explain it then the default answer is "Stress"

ditto. and some things just dont have an explanation. the OPs statement is very much theory. lots of things can correlate and seem like they make sense on paper. I think anything is possible and stress is a daily experience for every human being alive but how the body responds is rather dependent on the individual.
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Kierkegaard

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Re: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2015, 04:24:47 am »
And I will say that I had one very insightful doctor (into testing cortisol, adrenal fatigue, etc.) who said very quickly and too confidently that my hypogonadism was "just stress."  But if that's the case, I argued back, why does my brother also have low testosterone without a stressful environment?  No response.  But he was overall the best doc I've had.

That reminds me of when I first got tested for secondary hypogonadism my FSH was really suppressed (like 0.8-1 or so). My T levels were like in the 350s and the endocrinologist was like "all normal". When I asked about the FSH the only thing they said was its all the stress causing the FSH decline. But that made absolutely no sense and this was the same endo who said "There are no studies that show T improves mood" so clearly they were ignorant.

Using the stress theory, you would see low FSH levels in anxiety disorders and depression but you don't. The endo was like oh you are in a stressful major in college which is causing all of this. But that also made absolutely no sense since my ability to handle stress was far better than most ppl before all the hormonal garbage happened. So clearly, stress contributed very little to secondary hypogonadism in my case. It was the inability to handle stress and the anxiety itself causing all the stress....

If nobody can explain it then the default answer is "Stress"

Well, that's a hypothesis worth checking out.  I think that there *would* be a connection between chronic stress (whether this means depression, anxiety, or just chronic stress) and lowering of LH/FSH, in that the stronger and/or more chronic the stress, the lower your LH and FSH as a result.  Sapolsky states unambiguously that as soon as your body senses stress, your testosterone is tuned down, most dramatically seen with physical stress as during an operation: make the first incision and your testosterone secretion almost totally stops.  Which makes sense, seeing how your body being concerned with reproduction is a moot point when you yourself are on the verge of being killed.

Thing is, docs just don't know of the relatively complicated connections between testosterone and cortisol, much less exogenous testosterone and cortisol (which involves a shutdown of the P450scc enzyme which converts cholesterol to pregnenolone and therefore eventually to cortisol).  When I told my doc that I stopped injecting 100 mg per week because it caused a fast heartbeat and wired feeling, he said (not bluntly) that it was a cortisol thing.  Well, it's not cortisol as we know, because higher T means lower cortisol when the T is endogenous, and especially (given the shutdown of P450scc) exogenous.  What I was likely experiencing was too low cortisol coupled with too high epinephrine and norepinephrine (and all other sorts of adrenal hormones), hence the fast heartbeat, and possibly the wired effects that too much DHT can bring; when you mix these together you tend to have an elongated stress response, because cortisol isn't as high as it should be to dampen these other stress hormones by lowering ACTH.

Of course, if you try telling docs details like this, you're bound to get stonewalled or just gently ignored.  I have a gold medal in this experience. 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 04:32:57 am by Kierkegaard »
"The same thing that makes you live can kill you in the end." -- Neil Young

March 2014: Dx low T (158ng/dl)
September 2015: Dx hypothyroidism, other adrenal hypofunction
2016: chronic fatigue, unspecified

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Re: I know the reason now for secondary hypogonadism
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2015, 04:24:47 am »