Intermittent fasting vs. eating at bedtime

[Punctualpete]

Does anyone here have any knowledge of which of these methods is more effective for raising T?
I've seen both recommended.  Generally either

1) Use intermittent fasting (approximately 16 hours continuous fasting/8 hour window for eating per 24 hrs)

Or

2) Eat a couple/few eggs and some nuts in the morning and before bed

It looks to me like it's "give your body what it needs to produce T during the time it produces the most (sleep)" vs "mildly stress your body to induce a hormonal response, and use less energy for digestion so it can be used elsewhere". Those are simplifications, of course.

Both follow principles that make sense, and they seem mutually exclusive unless you have a really interesting sleep/eat schedule, so is there any evidence that one would work better than the other?

Or, if anyone has an approach they feel works better than either of those, that would be interesting to see as well.

Thanks!

[PeakT]

Hey, good to see you back.

Here is the question that I would like to know:

What does 5-2 intermittent fasting do to hormones, glucose/insulin and IGF-1 compared to 14 hour daily intermittent fasting?

So, if you can, try these out and run some numbers.  Let us know what you come up with:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/testosterone_labs

[Punctualpete]

I'll be happy to test both ways.  I do have a couple of questions.

1) What do you mean by 5-2 fasting?  Is that 5 days on, 2 days off?

2) How long would I need to do each method in order to give it enough time to have a fair chance of producing results?

Right now I'm thinking 3 weeks each, but I just made that number up arbitrarily. 

[PeakT]

I'll be happy to test both ways.  I do have a couple of questions.

1) What do you mean by 5-2 fasting?  Is that 5 days on, 2 days off?

2) How long would I need to do each method in order to give it enough time to have a fair chance of producing results?

Right now I'm thinking 3 weeks each, but I just made that number up arbitrarily.

1)  Yes.  2 days of 500 calories I believe is the norm.  Valter Longo is one of the top researchers in this area.  Here is a quote:

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2015/jan/27/fasting-facts-is-the-52-diet-too-good-to-be-true

"Longo himself has fasted daily for more than five years now. He practises time-restricted feeding, where he allows himself only two meals within three to 12 hours – a method that is common among centenarians and, says, “a good way for me to maintain a healthy weight”. It’s better than 5:2, according to Longo, because your system prefers a daily routine, rather than extremes every few days (he also recommends three-to-five day fasts every three months). But he wouldn’t recommend trying it without medical supervision, for fear of malnourishment and “because people like to improvise”, he says. You certainly can’t just go around fasting willy-nilly if you’re still growing, pregnant, diabetic or have other serious health conditions."

2) 3-4 weeks is what I remember as well.

[Sighalot]

1)  Yes.  2 days of 500 calories I believe is the norm.  Valter Longo is one of the top researchers in this area.  Here is a quote:

Sounds like vlcd like cambridge may be an option.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cambridge_Diet

[Punctualpete]

I have a rough outline of a trial, let me know what you guys think.

I'm not really interested in 5-2, more in fasting vs eating "T building blocks" in the morning and at bedtime.

3 weeks: 5 almonds, 3 brazil nuts upon waking and at bedtime (similar to Tim Ferriss' protocol).

3 weeks: 16/8 IF

Thinking of sticking to an exercise schedule of walking everyday and doing resistance work (mostly pushups and pullups with core) MWF.

Hopefully sleeping consistent hours throughout the trial.

I take D3 and fish oil, and I've just started taking ZMA and boron.  During the "nuts" period I will take these supplements when I eat the nuts (waking and bedtime).  Suring the 16/8 IF period I will still eat nuts and take these supplements, but I will do it with meals within the 8 hour eating window.

Does that sound like a reasonable test?

Also, I'm torn on what numbers to get pulled.  If I do a baseline test and then one after each 3-week period that's 3 tests, and could get pretty expensive.

I'd like to check total and free T, DHT, cortisol, hCRP, IGF, glucose, Lipids, prolactin, dopamine (can you test for that?), maybe estradiol, and SHBG.  That is a lot of stuff, and way too expensive. 

Any advice as far as prioritizing those? 

I can do $1-200 per test, total cost of $4-600 for the three trials.  Discounted labs has some good looking prices, but even there I can't afford to run everything I want to.

Thanks for any tips and feedback!

[PeakT]

I have a rough outline of a trial, let me know what you guys think.

I'm not really interested in 5-2, more in fasting vs eating "T building blocks" in the morning and at bedtime.

3 weeks: 5 almonds, 3 brazil nuts upon waking and at bedtime (similar to Tim Ferriss' protocol).

3 weeks: 16/8 IF

Thinking of sticking to an exercise schedule of walking everyday and doing resistance work (mostly pushups and pullups with core) MWF.

Hopefully sleeping consistent hours throughout the trial.

I take D3 and fish oil, and I've just started taking ZMA and boron.  During the "nuts" period I will take these supplements when I eat the nuts (waking and bedtime).  Suring the 16/8 IF period I will still eat nuts and take these supplements, but I will do it with meals within the 8 hour eating window.

Does that sound like a reasonable test?

Also, I'm torn on what numbers to get pulled.  If I do a baseline test and then one after each 3-week period that's 3 tests, and could get pretty expensive.

I'd like to check total and free T, DHT, cortisol, hCRP, IGF, glucose, Lipids, prolactin, dopamine (can you test for that?), maybe estradiol, and SHBG.  That is a lot of stuff, and way too expensive. 

Any advice as far as prioritizing those? 

I can do $1-200 per test, total cost of $4-600 for the three trials.  Discounted labs has some good looking prices, but even there I can't afford to run everything I want to.

Thanks for any tips and feedback!

hey, just got a sec here.  you don't want to do more than one brazil nut per day max.  you can give yourself selenium poisoning.  read up on it a bit...

[Punctualpete]

Did some reading on brazil nuts, and I think I'd change to having 2 or 3 per day instead of 6.  Some of what I found:

RDA for selenium is between 55-75mcg.  Upper safe limit is stated at 400mcg, with the absolute limit being 800mcg.

The Merck Manual says that selenium is toxic in doses exceeding 900mcg/day.

Toxicity can be acute or chronic.  Toxicity is determined more by signs and symptoms in individual subjects, and not so much by specific lab values.  An example of this is some native Amazonian people, who were tested and had blood serum selenium levels that were well into the toxic range, but they showed none of the symptoms of selenosis.  I know, I am not of Amazonian descent, but pretty much all of the cases I’ve seen mentioned where people showed symptoms of selenium poisoning were not the result of Brazil nuts; they came from inorganic industrial compounds, mislabeled super-potent supplements, or food grown in soil with ridiculously high selenium levels.  If you'd like to see links I'm happy to provide them.

There are at least a couple of studies on pubmed where single consumption of 20-50g of brazil nuts improved inflammatory markers and lipid profiles in healthy volunteers.  No risk of poisoning in a one-time trial I guess, but evidence of some of the benefits.

The trickiest thing that I found was that the selenium content of individual nuts varies quite a bit, anywhere from 8mcg to around 200mcg.  The most common figure I saw was an average of 96mcg/nut.  Based on the RDA one nut would be plenty, and you could have up to 4 and be safe.

What I'm getting is that brazil nuts are good, just be careful that you don't chow down a bunch of them every day.  My plan now is to have 1 in the morning and 2 at night, for a total of 3 per day.  That will definitely give me enough selenium, and should stay safely within a non-toxic range.

All of that aside:

1) does the general idea of the trial I proposed look like it would give a credible result?

2) any thoughts on which numbers would be most valuable to pull/most likely to change in an IF vs non IF trial?

Thanks!

[PeakT]

Well, you've got a pretty involved protocol there. 

So quick q:  what is your primary goal with the nuts?  I'm asking for a reason?  T?  NO?  Gen'll health?

[PeakT]

Punctual Pete gave some numbers.  He said that resistance training + IF almost doubled his testosterone:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=7040.0