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Author Topic: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole  (Read 16606 times)

Regulus

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So, I've been able to control my estradiol pretty well using various dietary aromatase inhibitors.  Most effective have been mushrooms and cruciferous veggies, and recently had a pretty good success with chamomile.   However, it gets impractical to make sure to eat a couple pounds of mushrooms a week, and you can't always drink four glasses of iced tea with chamomile, and I was never 100% sure how much I needed it anyway.   So I went a couple weeks avoiding mushrooms and chamomile, and didn't avoid crucifers but didn't eat a ton of them.

Lab results came back, and my E2 went from around 25 at last reading to 79.   (Total T was in the 900's both times.)

I was not surprised it was that high.   During this experiment I completely lost all libido, and started having trouble holding back the tears at typical tear-jerker stuff.

OK, so, first of all, yay mushrooms (and for someone who is just a little high, they might be a practical solution) but still, not practical to have to eat them in the quantity I was doing.  Obviously they were needed, but it's just not practical to have too keep cooking them and fitting them in such a large quantity into my diet.   So, something else has to give.

So, my doc and I discussed this and I've started anastrazole, 1/2 mg every other day.   Going to test again in 3 months, and see where the numbers are, as well as watching symptoms.

So, I started a week ago.   Had an almost immediate start of improvement in emotional stability and sexual function, both of which have continued to improve.   Two questions for the field:

1.   Based on the half life of anastrazole (3-4 days I believe), after about two weeks I should be at a steady level of where I'm going to be on this dose.   So, how long after that should I expect that E2 levels will get to where they are going to get at this dose?   I would assume not too long afterwards, but should I expect to be there pretty much at two weeks?   A week later?   Two weeks later?   

2.    My doc suggested I consider a bone-density scan, up front and then assuming I stay on it, about five years in.   To me this seems unnecessary, but I appreciate that she's looking out for me pretty thoroughly.   Question:   is the risk of osteoporosis and such due to the drug itself, or is it due to low E2 levels?    On a low dose, and without intending to keep E2 abnormally low, is osteo a sufficient risk to be doing something like that?   

Advice appreciated.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:25:58 am by PeakT »
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xrayguy

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2015, 09:44:35 pm »
2.    My doc suggested I consider a bone-density scan, up front and then assuming I stay on it, about five years in.   To me this seems unnecessary, but I appreciate that she's looking out for me pretty thoroughly.   Question:   is the risk of osteoporosis and such due to the drug itself, or is it due to low E2 levels?    On a low dose, and without intending to keep E2 abnormally low, is osteo a sufficient risk to be doing something like that?

Osteo is not caused by the drug itself, it can be caused by the effect of the drug which is to lower E2. If your E2 is below normal for too long, osteo can result as E2 is needed to rebuild bone. Use of Arimidex in men is off label, the drugs primary purpose is for treating breast cancer in women. Breast cancer tumors have a tendency to feed off of E2, so they treat women for 5 years with Arimidex to lower their E2 and starve the tumor. Because the E2 is lowered substantially for this period of time, osteo is a concern for a breast cancer patient taking Arimidex.

For us guys taking Arimidex to lower E2, we are using a smaller dose to lower E2 into a NORMAL range for a man. As a result, osteo should never occur. Regular monitoring of E2 levels for men while on Arimidex is to ensure you are not getting too high a dose and lowering your E2 too much.

Your doctor probably recommended a BMD test now to get a baseline of where your bone mineral density is currently, then compare it with another BMD test done in 5 years. First off, a BMD test exposes you to radiation. Second, a second BMD test 5 years later exposes you to even more radiation and you don't want to be finding out you have osteo 5 years later. I think the best thing to do is to start with a low dose of Arimidex and monitor E2 regularly to make sure it is in a proper range for a male. I would pass on the BMD test unless you have symptoms of osteo.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:26:07 am by PeakT »
Age 48, 5'10" 185lbs, from Canada

Symptoms: Anxiety, abdominal bloating/cramps/tenderness, fatigue, weakness, insomnia.

Rx treatment:
10/21/2015: NOTHING
10/15/2015: 120mg Testosterone cream
9/11/2015: 100mg Testosterone cream, 10/5/2.5mg Cortef
8/1/2015: 100mg Testosterone cream
7/23/2015: 100mg Testosterone cream, 15mg Thyroid
6/30/2015: 100mg Testosterone Cypionate/week, 0.5mg Arimidex 2x/week

Recent Tests March 2016:
T 234 ng/dl (297-850)
E2 19 pg/ml (<54)
SHBG 0.23 (0.20-1.00)
DHEAS 11.8 umol/L (<14.0)
TSH 4.63 mU/L (0.2-4.0)
Free T3: 6.2 pmol/L (3.5-6.5)
Free T4: 16.2 pmol/L (9.0-23.0)
Cortisol AM 279 nmol/L (120-620)
Cortisol PM 166 nmol/L (85-460)

Previous Tests:
T (300-1100ng/dl): 579>507>182>300>369>234
E2 (<54pg/ml): 72>59>43>28>25>19

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2015, 09:44:35 pm »


PeakT

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2015, 12:42:04 am »
I think geting tested is a great idea and make you use the right test for monitoring.  They always measured me a month after any protocol change.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:26:16 am by PeakT »
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juancar05

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2015, 05:19:05 am »
Wowww amazing mushrooms!! It's incredible. Thank you for that interesting study.
I think that dietary AI effects will change in each person, but is good to know a success case. Yes, I see you said "pounds of mushrooms a week" but it was "successful".
I have high E2, and next week I will start with anastrozol, 0.25mg twice a week.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:26:25 am by PeakT »

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2015, 05:19:05 am »


Cataceous

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2015, 06:09:35 am »
Your doctor probably recommended a BMD test now to get a baseline of where your bone mineral density is currently, then compare it with another BMD test done in 5 years. First off, a BMD test exposes you to radiation. Second, a second BMD test 5 years later exposes you to even more radiation and you don't want to be finding out you have osteo 5 years later. I think the best thing to do is to start with a low dose of Arimidex and monitor E2 regularly to make sure it is in a proper range for a male. I would pass on the BMD test unless you have symptoms of osteo.

The radiation exposure isn't a good reason to skip the DEXA scan; it's trivial. For example:
Quote
The dose associated with DEXA BMD measurement (lumbar spine and femur) was described as low or even insignificant in comparison with natural background radiation levels, well below the background value of about 7µSv per day (Njeh et al. 1999).

I had one showing I was borderline to osteopenia. The docs only recommended adequate calcium and vitamin D.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:26:33 am by PeakT »
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)—SHBG ~30 nmol/L

PeakT

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2015, 08:20:19 am »
Regulus:

That was amazing about the mushrooms!  Like I always say, "Food is clinical..."

You've been around the block, so you probably know all this, but just in case:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Which_Estradiol_Test_Best.aspx
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:26:41 am by PeakT »
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And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Regulus

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2015, 03:04:00 pm »
I think geting tested is a great idea and make you use the right test for monitoring.  They always measured me a month after any protocol change.

Yeah, unfortunately I live in New York ....
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:27:06 am by PeakT »
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PeakT

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2015, 04:17:28 pm »
I think geting tested is a great idea and make you use the right test for monitoring.  They always measured me a month after any protocol change.

Yeah, unfortunately I live in New York ....

Well, it's comforting to know that the state government has your best interests always in mind and want to control every aspect of your medical life, eh?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:27:14 am by PeakT »
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And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Regulus

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2015, 04:39:19 pm »
I do think that if someone is borderline high, working mushrooms into your diet on a regular and intentional basis might be a good way to keep things a little lower, with the idea that if you don't get enough, you're not going super high anyway so not optimal but no big deal.   

For me it's just I'm way too high without something to bring it down, I'm not sure what other foods are or are not helping, and feeling like I have to cook, clean, and eat a couple pounds a week is just not practical.   Also, while I am attributing the difference to the mushrooms (and there are studies to support that conclusion) there is no definitive way of knowing that they were what was doing it.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:27:26 am by PeakT »
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PeakT

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2015, 08:24:44 pm »
I do think that if someone is borderline high, working mushrooms into your diet on a regular and intentional basis might be a good way to keep things a little lower, with the idea that if you don't get enough, you're not going super high anyway so not optimal but no big deal.   

For me it's just I'm way too high without something to bring it down, I'm not sure what other foods are or are not helping, and feeling like I have to cook, clean, and eat a couple pounds a week is just not practical.   Also, while I am attributing the difference to the mushrooms (and there are studies to support that conclusion) there is no definitive way of knowing that they were what was doing it.

Well, assume just for a minute that it was the dietary foods lowering your estradiol.  Broccoli, at least the amount in food, is not supposed to lower it at all according to what I have read but just shift the metabolite profile to a more positive one.  So I'm thinking it's got to be the mushrooms (again, assuming there was a true effect). 

So how many cups a night were you eating of these mushrooms?  Sounds like you were pretty casual about it?  If that's really all it is, it doesn't sound too bad, right?

Were you just eating the standard cooking mushrooms you but everywhere?  Or were these shitaki or portobello or something?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:27:34 am by PeakT »
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Hydranted

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2015, 11:53:14 pm »
That's an extremely aggressive dose of Adex.  While you may need it to help manage your E2, starting at such a high dose is likely going to end poorly.  This dose will essentially block all aromatization of testosterone to E2 when used with any reasonable dose of testosterone.  Men need estradiol for many important bodily functions, so eliminating it from the hormonal equation is going to be problematic.

It may take some time for symptoms to occur, but I would be absolutely shocked if this dose didn't cause some very uncomfortable side effects for you in the near future. 

A dose like this will also likely result in some pretty significant negative effects on your lipids.

I'd strongly urge you to rethink such an extreme addition to your protocol.   
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:27:46 am by PeakT »

Regulus

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2015, 04:22:36 am »
That's an extremely aggressive dose of Adex.  While you may need it to help manage your E2, starting at such a high dose is likely going to end poorly.  This dose will essentially block all aromatization of testosterone to E2 when used with any reasonable dose of testosterone.  Men need estradiol for many important bodily functions, so eliminating it from the hormonal equation is going to be problematic.

It may take some time for symptoms to occur, but I would be absolutely shocked if this dose didn't cause some very uncomfortable side effects for you in the near future. 

A dose like this will also likely result in some pretty significant negative effects on your lipids.

I'd strongly urge you to rethink such an extreme addition to your protocol.

1/4 mg per day is extremely high?   My doc originally suggested 1 mg/ day, which definitely is high.  1/4 mg per day seems kind of middle of the road from what I've seen others using, especially given that I am very high without it. 

I do understand that going too low is a risk on any dose.  Test and correct means the possibility of overshooting and having to deal with a few lousy weeks potentially.

But actually that was why I was asking about how long before you reach the steady state E2 level for a given dose.   Right now I feel great, but I'm probably not to steady state yet.  I'm guessing that it's somewhere around 2.5-3 weeks in that stability is reached, and at that point I'll be able to judge.  But if anybody has better info than that guess, I'd appreciate it. 

I can't order self tests in my state, and The amount of testing that my doctor can order an insurance will cover is decent but limited. Since self-testing is not available in the state, if she orders any tests that are not covered by insurance, the lab charges are outrageous.   However, she is agreeable to my reducing the dose based on symptoms if I start to experience low e2 symptoms.  So, wondering when that might be. 

Thanks for the recommendations in any case.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:27:54 am by PeakT »
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Regulus

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2015, 04:34:55 am »
I do think that if someone is borderline high, working mushrooms into your diet on a regular and intentional basis might be a good way to keep things a little lower, with the idea that if you don't get enough, you're not going super high anyway so not optimal but no big deal.   

For me it's just I'm way too high without something to bring it down, I'm not sure what other foods are or are not helping, and feeling like I have to cook, clean, and eat a couple pounds a week is just not practical.   Also, while I am attributing the difference to the mushrooms (and there are studies to support that conclusion) there is no definitive way of knowing that they were what was doing it.

Well, assume just for a minute that it was the dietary foods lowering your estradiol.  Broccoli, at least the amount in food, is not supposed to lower it at all according to what I have read but just shift the metabolite profile to a more positive one.  So I'm thinking it's got to be the mushrooms (again, assuming there was a true effect). 

So how many cups a night were you eating of these mushrooms?  Sounds like you were pretty casual about it?  If that's really all it is, it doesn't sound too bad, right?

Were you just eating the standard cooking mushrooms you but everywhere?  Or were these shitaki or portobello or something?

Oh I think it probably was the shrooms, just can't say for certain. 

Supposedly all types work to some extent, but in tests they have found that the most effective mushrooms against aromatase are white button mushrooms.   The cheap and easily available ones.  Portobellos and criminal (the small brown ones) are the exact same species as white buttons, so presumably their effect is comparable.

I was buying three pounds of brown "baby Bella" criminal mushrooms a week, cleaning and slicing them, and cooking them up in a little olive oil.   Over the course of the week I'd eat around 1/7 of that batch daily.   Added to salads or as a topping on sandwiches, or just as a snack. 

I'd also cook with mushrooms whenever possible.  In addition to the above. 

Not bad to do, mushrooms are tasty and super good for you in a lot of ways.  However, keeping that up is not practical.  Impossible when traveling.  Hard to prioritize the weekly cooking and cleaning when there are other things to do.   And honestly eating a bunch of mushrooms every single day really gets old. 

So I think they work, and probably are beneficial if you are just trying to nudge things down.  If I can drop that last 15 pounds of flab and cut back on the booze (I'm a very moderate drinker but could still do with less of that) maybe I might get E2 down to something like 40 or so, high but not disastrously so, and then just keep eating the mushrooms to nudge things down a bit.  That would be reasonable.  What it was taking to get my apparent ground state near 80 down to something tolerable was just ridiculous though.  Really cool that it worked, but not a practical solution for me. 

« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:28:03 am by PeakT »
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Cataceous

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2015, 07:25:37 am »
Just be sure to adequately cook your 'shrooms.

Quote
Buttons, and many other edible mushrooms contain various hydrazines, a group of chemical compounds generally considered carcinogenic. For the most part, these compounds are heat sensitive, readily volatilized and expunged from the fungal flesh by proper cooking.

Link.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:28:12 am by PeakT »
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 57, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 158 lbs
Protocol: 18 mg T enanthate subQ qod, 250 IU hCG subQ qod, 70 mcg anastrozole qod, 6.25 mg DHEA orally bid
7-12/2018 test results: TT: 800 ng/dL, E2: 31 pg/mL LC/MS-MS, DHEA-S: 264 ug/dL (49-344)—SHBG ~30 nmol/L

PeakT

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2015, 09:19:01 am »
Just be sure to adequately cook your 'shrooms.

Quote
Buttons, and many other edible mushrooms contain various hydrazines, a group of chemical compounds generally considered carcinogenic. For the most part, these compounds are heat sensitive, readily volatilized and expunged from the fungal flesh by proper cooking.

Link.

Got it...
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 09:28:21 am by PeakT »
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program.aspx
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: Mushrooms Probably Lowered My Estradiol But Switching to Anastrazole
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2015, 09:19:01 am »