How evil is soy?

[Nocturne]

I'm trying to eat better, and part of that has meant less red meat.  I've been experimenting with different alternative proteins and of course found some of the soy-based "fake meat" alternatives.

I've also recently found some stuff that seems to be based on pea protein and some other stuff based in mushrooms (mycoprotein?).  Not as experienced with that yet.

I've made decent chili with soy-based fake meat crumbles and enjoyed some frozen soy-based patties (or black bean patties with some soy in them).  I also like sushi which of course is generally eaten with soy sauce (although my cousin tells me that unagi, or "sushi" with cooked eel meat, which I like, is not generally eaten with soy sauce).

I'm leery of using too much soy, though, as I have heard it can increase estrogen levels.

What's the real deal with soy, and how careful should people with low T be in avoiding it?  Are some types of soy-based food (fermented, etc.) OK to eat?  Are the dangers of soy overhyped?  What about "alternative" meat alternatives without soy that are based on pea and mushroom protein?

[Cataceous]

You'll of course find the whole range of opinion on the Internet. The articles I've found the most credible say that the dangers are overstated, that eating massive amounts could cause some reversible feminization, but that eating modest amounts is perfectly ok and maybe even beneficial.

[Regulus]

As far as I know, there isn't really any serious scientific evidence that soy increases estrogen levels, and there have been studies that show it doesn't.

Most of the worry is based on the fact that soy contains phytoestrogens.   Plant chemicals that are not identical to, but similar to human estrogens.   Guys hear the word "estrogen" and freak out.

There is an at least equally compelling argument that soy in reasonable amounts is beneficial.  Phytoestrogens crowd out regular estrogens, but they are a few orders of magnitude less potent.   They run interference against actual estrogens and as a result produce a net anti-estrogenic effect.   Shippen was a proponent of this idea (maybe still is, I don't know) and in one of his books he recommends consumption of soy for men on TRT.

As far as non-hormone stuff goes, there's a fair amount of evidence that soy consumption is beneficial in cancer prevention and in other ways.  It also is potentially beneficial because of what it replaces in the diet, which is sometimes not so good for you.  As far as risks go, I like Alton Brown's quote that the safety of tofu is proven by the continued existence of Japanese people.

[PeakT]

I'm trying to eat better, and part of that has meant less red meat.  I've been experimenting with different alternative proteins and of course found some of the soy-based "fake meat" alternatives.

I've also recently found some stuff that seems to be based on pea protein and some other stuff based in mushrooms (mycoprotein?).  Not as experienced with that yet.

I've made decent chili with soy-based fake meat crumbles and enjoyed some frozen soy-based patties (or black bean patties with some soy in them).  I also like sushi which of course is generally eaten with soy sauce (although my cousin tells me that unagi, or "sushi" with cooked eel meat, which I like, is not generally eaten with soy sauce).

I'm leery of using too much soy, though, as I have heard it can increase estrogen levels.

What's the real deal with soy, and how careful should people with low T be in avoiding it?  Are some types of soy-based food (fermented, etc.) OK to eat?  Are the dangers of soy overhyped?  What about "alternative" meat alternatives without soy that are based on pea and mushroom protein?

The pro's are that the healthiest and most long-lived modern culture on the planet ate mediums amounts of soy.  It also appears to be extremely prostate cancer protective and boosts nitric oxide.

Here are the cons:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/soy_men

[Boxcar]

I agree with everyone so far.  If you want to play it safe, focus on whole foods and traditional foods and avoid newfangled vegetarian protein products.

[Osprey]

I developed hypothyroidism after 15 years of being an ovo-lacto vegetarian and eating a lot of soy. No one else in my family is hypothyroid. So I would recommend eating it sparingly if at all.

[explorer]

Famine food. Eat if you're about to die of hunger and there is nothing else available.

[PeakT]

Well, I think we know where you guys stand on the issue.   

[kcrunner]

I developed hypothyroidism after 15 years of being an ovo-lacto vegetarian and eating a lot of soy. No one else in my family is hypothyroid. So I would recommend eating it sparingly if at all.

Correlation does not equal causation.   I would imagine you did all sorts of things over the course of 15 years prior to being hypothyroid.   

The longest lived peoples on the planet are typically either vegetarian or pescetarian.  I am hypothyroid. The only evidence at all for a dietary cause of hypothyroidism is an iodine deficiency. 

Always remember the plural of anecdotal is not evidence. 

[kcrunner]

The only issue I see with soy is that if you are salt sensitive, soy products have a tendency to be higher in sodium. 

[explorer]

The only evidence at all for a dietary cause of hypothyroidism is an iodine deficiency.

Pretty sure there is more evidence than just iodine. Just to mention three: protein amount and proportion of the diet, polyunsaturated fats, and magnesium.

For example, protein deficiency slows down metabolism. Just see what difference in pulse and temperature you get (because it's easier to measure) by taking 20 grams of protein per day, 40 grams, 60 g, 80g, and 100 g.

There are studies about using different oils, the more polyunsaturated oils produce more weight gain. This is consistent with animal studies showing polyunsaturated fats slow down the metabolic rate.

Magnesium supplements reduce TSH, which likely means it increases the metabolic rate.

I'm sure you can find many other things. It would be harder to find something that does not affect the metabolic rate.

[Osprey]

I developed hypothyroidism after 15 years of being an ovo-lacto vegetarian and eating a lot of soy. No one else in my family is hypothyroid. So I would recommend eating it sparingly if at all.

Correlation does not equal causation.   I would imagine you did all sorts of things over the course of 15 years prior to being hypothyroid.   

The longest lived peoples on the planet are typically either vegetarian or pescetarian.  I am hypothyroid. The only evidence at all for a dietary cause of hypothyroidism is an iodine deficiency. 

Always remember the plural of anecdotal is not evidence.

Well there is this study which certainly suggests that iodine deficiency combined with high soy consumption can induce hypothyroidism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1241182/pdf/ehp110s-000349.pdf

It is highly likely that I was iodine deficient during that time as well. I ate no iodized salt and only limited amounts of seaweed. My soy consumption averaged about 8oz. of tofu and a quart of soymilk everyday.

[simmer]

The only issue I see with soy is that if you are salt sensitive, soy products have a tendency to be higher in sodium.

You're right about the higher sodium content, but the types of soy sauce available in the world vary massively - different ingredients, different manufacturing techniques, different fermentation times... I suspect the end result of this is that some soy sauce is good for the body, while other soy sauce is bad for the body, no "one size fits all".

Cooking a proper teriyaki, for example, really needs a good, slightly thick Japanese soy sauce (amongst other ingredients) and a typical Chinese or Filipino soy sauce just doesn't work. The same Japanese soy sauce does not work for a Filipino adobo dish.

[kcrunner]

The only issue I see with soy is that if you are salt sensitive, soy products have a tendency to be higher in sodium.

You're right about the higher sodium content, but the types of soy sauce available in the world vary massively - different ingredients, different manufacturing techniques, different fermentation times... I suspect the end result of this is that some soy sauce is good for the body, while other soy sauce is bad for the body, no "one size fits all".

Cooking a proper teriyaki, for example, really needs a good, slightly thick Japanese soy sauce (amongst other ingredients) and a typical Chinese or Filipino soy sauce just doesn't work. The same Japanese soy sauce does not work for a Filipino adobo dish.

True, but I wasn't really referring to soy sauce, but rather soy products in general.   Even soy protein powders are typically much higher in sodium than their whey counterparts. 

[simmer]

True, but I wasn't really referring to soy sauce, but rather soy products in general.   Even soy protein powders are typically much higher in sodium than their whey counterparts.

My apologies - I don't know where I got soy sauce from!