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Author Topic: How evil is soy?  (Read 7172 times)

Nocturne

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How evil is soy?
« on: September 15, 2015, 08:46:24 pm »
I'm trying to eat better, and part of that has meant less red meat.  I've been experimenting with different alternative proteins and of course found some of the soy-based "fake meat" alternatives.

I've also recently found some stuff that seems to be based on pea protein and some other stuff based in mushrooms (mycoprotein?).  Not as experienced with that yet.

I've made decent chili with soy-based fake meat crumbles and enjoyed some frozen soy-based patties (or black bean patties with some soy in them).  I also like sushi which of course is generally eaten with soy sauce (although my cousin tells me that unagi, or "sushi" with cooked eel meat, which I like, is not generally eaten with soy sauce).

I'm leery of using too much soy, though, as I have heard it can increase estrogen levels.

What's the real deal with soy, and how careful should people with low T be in avoiding it?  Are some types of soy-based food (fermented, etc.) OK to eat?  Are the dangers of soy overhyped?  What about "alternative" meat alternatives without soy that are based on pea and mushroom protein?
43 years old
5'7", was 220 pounds when trouble started, now down to 165
Trouble began with abrupt ED Early May '15
Initial T level 130
Started Clomid in hopes of rebooting system June '15
Currently taking 25 mg eod and .25 mg Arimidex every 4 days
T level 480 or so at last reading
ED in check with 2.5 mg Cialis eod and supplements:
POM juice, L-Cit, Pycnogenol

Morning anxiety currently in check with GABA taken every night

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Aortic stenosis (very mild for now)
CAC score 156(!) at age 42
Lp(a) is a shockingly bad 390 nmol/L -- TRIPLE the "extremely high risk" level!
Homozygous for the bad "G" variant of SNP rs10455872, which increases Lp(a) as well as odds for aortic stenosis and coronary artery lesions. 
I think I know what trashed my heart...

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CoQ-10, Vitamin K2, and Kyolic Aged Garlic Extract every day too
Walking 10,000 steps a day

Cataceous

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2015, 09:12:18 pm »
You'll of course find the whole range of opinion on the Internet. The articles I've found the most credible say that the dangers are overstated, that eating massive amounts could cause some reversible feminization, but that eating modest amounts is perfectly ok and maybe even beneficial.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 09:30:30 pm by Cataceous »
I am not a medical doctor; any suggestions are meant to be discussed with your doctor.
Age: 60, Ht: 5'10", Wt: 154 lbs
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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2015, 09:12:18 pm »


Regulus

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2015, 09:29:19 pm »
As far as I know, there isn't really any serious scientific evidence that soy increases estrogen levels, and there have been studies that show it doesn't.

Most of the worry is based on the fact that soy contains phytoestrogens.   Plant chemicals that are not identical to, but similar to human estrogens.   Guys hear the word "estrogen" and freak out.

There is an at least equally compelling argument that soy in reasonable amounts is beneficial.  Phytoestrogens crowd out regular estrogens, but they are a few orders of magnitude less potent.   They run interference against actual estrogens and as a result produce a net anti-estrogenic effect.   Shippen was a proponent of this idea (maybe still is, I don't know) and in one of his books he recommends consumption of soy for men on TRT.

As far as non-hormone stuff goes, there's a fair amount of evidence that soy consumption is beneficial in cancer prevention and in other ways.  It also is potentially beneficial because of what it replaces in the diet, which is sometimes not so good for you.  As far as risks go, I like Alton Brown's quote that the safety of tofu is proven by the continued existence of Japanese people.
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PeakT

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2015, 09:37:38 pm »
I'm trying to eat better, and part of that has meant less red meat.  I've been experimenting with different alternative proteins and of course found some of the soy-based "fake meat" alternatives.

I've also recently found some stuff that seems to be based on pea protein and some other stuff based in mushrooms (mycoprotein?).  Not as experienced with that yet.

I've made decent chili with soy-based fake meat crumbles and enjoyed some frozen soy-based patties (or black bean patties with some soy in them).  I also like sushi which of course is generally eaten with soy sauce (although my cousin tells me that unagi, or "sushi" with cooked eel meat, which I like, is not generally eaten with soy sauce).

I'm leery of using too much soy, though, as I have heard it can increase estrogen levels.

What's the real deal with soy, and how careful should people with low T be in avoiding it?  Are some types of soy-based food (fermented, etc.) OK to eat?  Are the dangers of soy overhyped?  What about "alternative" meat alternatives without soy that are based on pea and mushroom protein?

The pro's are that the healthiest and most long-lived modern culture on the planet ate mediums amounts of soy.  It also appears to be extremely prostate cancer protective and boosts nitric oxide.

Here are the cons:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/soy_men
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If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2015, 09:37:38 pm »


Boxcar

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2015, 01:03:00 am »
I agree with everyone so far.  If you want to play it safe, focus on whole foods and traditional foods and avoid newfangled vegetarian protein products.
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Osprey

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2015, 01:22:40 am »
I developed hypothyroidism after 15 years of being an ovo-lacto vegetarian and eating a lot of soy. No one else in my family is hypothyroid. So I would recommend eating it sparingly if at all.

explorer

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2015, 01:23:52 am »
Famine food. Eat if you're about to die of hunger and there is nothing else available.

PeakT

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2015, 01:41:03 am »
Well, I think we know where you guys stand on the issue.   ;D
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

kcrunner

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2015, 02:32:58 am »
I developed hypothyroidism after 15 years of being an ovo-lacto vegetarian and eating a lot of soy. No one else in my family is hypothyroid. So I would recommend eating it sparingly if at all.

Correlation does not equal causation.   I would imagine you did all sorts of things over the course of 15 years prior to being hypothyroid.   

The longest lived peoples on the planet are typically either vegetarian or pescetarian.  I am hypothyroid. The only evidence at all for a dietary cause of hypothyroidism is an iodine deficiency. 

Always remember the plural of anecdotal is not evidence. 
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kcrunner

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2015, 02:34:42 am »
The only issue I see with soy is that if you are salt sensitive, soy products have a tendency to be higher in sodium. 
Age: 43
Height: 6,1
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Total Testosterone: 829 ng/dl
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Current Meds:  Levothyroxine 175mcg, Testosterone Cyp Intra-Muscular 100 mg every 5 days.
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B Complex
Fish Oil

explorer

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2015, 02:41:47 am »
The only evidence at all for a dietary cause of hypothyroidism is an iodine deficiency.

Pretty sure there is more evidence than just iodine. Just to mention three: protein amount and proportion of the diet, polyunsaturated fats, and magnesium.

For example, protein deficiency slows down metabolism. Just see what difference in pulse and temperature you get (because it's easier to measure) by taking 20 grams of protein per day, 40 grams, 60 g, 80g, and 100 g.

There are studies about using different oils, the more polyunsaturated oils produce more weight gain. This is consistent with animal studies showing polyunsaturated fats slow down the metabolic rate.

Magnesium supplements reduce TSH, which likely means it increases the metabolic rate.

I'm sure you can find many other things. It would be harder to find something that does not affect the metabolic rate.

Osprey

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2015, 02:47:47 am »
I developed hypothyroidism after 15 years of being an ovo-lacto vegetarian and eating a lot of soy. No one else in my family is hypothyroid. So I would recommend eating it sparingly if at all.

Correlation does not equal causation.   I would imagine you did all sorts of things over the course of 15 years prior to being hypothyroid.   

The longest lived peoples on the planet are typically either vegetarian or pescetarian.  I am hypothyroid. The only evidence at all for a dietary cause of hypothyroidism is an iodine deficiency. 

Always remember the plural of anecdotal is not evidence.

Well there is this study which certainly suggests that iodine deficiency combined with high soy consumption can induce hypothyroidism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1241182/pdf/ehp110s-000349.pdf

It is highly likely that I was iodine deficient during that time as well. I ate no iodized salt and only limited amounts of seaweed. My soy consumption averaged about 8oz. of tofu and a quart of soymilk everyday.

simmer

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2015, 04:25:47 pm »
The only issue I see with soy is that if you are salt sensitive, soy products have a tendency to be higher in sodium.

You're right about the higher sodium content, but the types of soy sauce available in the world vary massively - different ingredients, different manufacturing techniques, different fermentation times... I suspect the end result of this is that some soy sauce is good for the body, while other soy sauce is bad for the body, no "one size fits all".

Cooking a proper teriyaki, for example, really needs a good, slightly thick Japanese soy sauce (amongst other ingredients) and a typical Chinese or Filipino soy sauce just doesn't work. The same Japanese soy sauce does not work for a Filipino adobo dish.
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kcrunner

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2015, 04:30:45 pm »
The only issue I see with soy is that if you are salt sensitive, soy products have a tendency to be higher in sodium.

You're right about the higher sodium content, but the types of soy sauce available in the world vary massively - different ingredients, different manufacturing techniques, different fermentation times... I suspect the end result of this is that some soy sauce is good for the body, while other soy sauce is bad for the body, no "one size fits all".

Cooking a proper teriyaki, for example, really needs a good, slightly thick Japanese soy sauce (amongst other ingredients) and a typical Chinese or Filipino soy sauce just doesn't work. The same Japanese soy sauce does not work for a Filipino adobo dish.

True, but I wasn't really referring to soy sauce, but rather soy products in general.   Even soy protein powders are typically much higher in sodium than their whey counterparts. 
Age: 43
Height: 6,1
Weight: 180
Total Testosterone: 829 ng/dl
Free Testosterone: 22 ng/dl
Current Meds:  Levothyroxine 175mcg, Testosterone Cyp Intra-Muscular 100 mg every 5 days.
Supplements-
Multivitamin
Magnesium
Vitamin D
B Complex
Fish Oil

simmer

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2015, 07:12:30 pm »
True, but I wasn't really referring to soy sauce, but rather soy products in general.   Even soy protein powders are typically much higher in sodium than their whey counterparts.

My apologies - I don't know where I got soy sauce from!  :-[
Late 30s, low T, on cypionate injections, currently 60mg once every 7 days, last labs trough 600 T (350-950), 32 E2 (8-42), everything else within range. Those labs were from 100mg/E10D.

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Re: How evil is soy?
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2015, 07:12:30 pm »