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Author Topic: Estradiol questions  (Read 20344 times)

Guyute

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Estradiol questions
« on: January 09, 2012, 06:59:28 pm »
Hey everyone, I'm new to the forum and was hoping to get some of your input as I am new to this Low Testosterone life I am stuck with.  Here's my situation:

39 year-old male, 6'2", 208 lbs. (normally 195-198), very active (not a bodybuilder but hit the gym 3-4x a week and play hockey 3-4x a week), relatively healthy diet, low stress, work nights (sleep patterns are not exactly normal).  I have never used steroids or testosterone in the past.

TIMELINE:

January 2010: had a complete physical including blood work, Testosterone levels were 709.  Judged to be in great health.

May 2010: first signs of a problem included: no sex drive, constant fatigue, severe memory loss, brain fog/difficulty concentrating, difficulty urinating, mood swings, apathy, depression, etc.  All of this took place over a 3-4 week period.

June 2010: my primary referred me to Urologist, who said I had an enlarged prostate.  Prescribed Cipro.  During follow-up, doctor said I was healed.  He never did blood work and stated he could tell by my hairline that it was NOT testosterone related.  I told him symptoms were still present and he told me it was all in my head.

October 2010: went to another Urologist for a second opinion.  Blood work revealed testosterone level of 238.  Started on Androgel 1%, 2 pump depressions per day.  Saw great results within 4 weeks.  Follow-up blood work revealed testosterone levels of 505.  Results were very short-lived however and lasted only 2 weeks.  Second follow-up blood work revealed levels just over 300.  Dosage was changed to 4 pump depressions per day with no change in symptoms.  Noticed significant shrinkage to both my penis and testicles.

December 2010: continued on increased dosage and third follow-up blood work revealed testosterone levels of 900+.  However, still no change in symptoms.  Estradiol was never checked, doctor just changed me back to original dosage.

March 2011:  after continuing dosage with no change, doctor suggested Testopel.  Started Testopel, 8 pellets, with no results whatsoever.  Blood work revealed Testosterone levels of 420.

July 2011: first visit with Endocrinologist, who had a difficult time figuring out if I was suffering from primary or secondary hypogonadism.  Suggested Axiron, so I started Axiron 30mg, 2 pump depressions per day with strong results within 3-4 weeks.  Follow-up blood work revealed testosterone levels of 540.  This was the best I had felt in a year.  I was completely back to normal. 

September 2011: results were fantastic but only lasted from July - mid September.  Literally overnight I went from "all systems go" to "stall mode."  Original symptoms returned, combined with hot flashes, sinus issues, cold hands and feet, dry eyes, fat gain, bloating and testicular atrophy.  Again, both doctors did not have the forsight to check Estradiol levels.

October 2011: started on Testosterone Cypionate injections, 200 mg once every 3 weeks with no results whatsoever.  After 2 or 3 injections, testosterone levels were 214, but this was at the end of "cycle" just prior to my next injection.  Estradiol was checked but was under 20.

November 2011: dosage increased to 300mg once every 2 weeks, with still no change.   

December 2011: Blood work reveals testosterone levels of 356 but original doctor leaves the practice and I am transferred to another doctor who was not a fan of injections and switches me to Androgel 1.6%, 3 pump depressions per day.  He gave me a three week supply so he could attempt to get a "baseline" but follow-up blood work revealed testosterone levels of 326, which he said was within "acceptable" levels.  I returned to Urologist, who put me back on Axiron because I had some success with it for a while.

January 2012: still using Axiron, 2 pump depressions per day.  Symptoms are still present and I feel no different.

Summary:  throughout this process, it seems that the only time I feel normal and the symptoms dissipate is when my levels are over 500.  However, from the reseach I have done, it appears possible that my estradiol levels may rise during thsi time and interfere with any progress I am making.  Although I am new to this, I feel the estradiol could be the problem.  Also, the testicular atrophy is troubling because it is painful and I plan on having children in the future.  Does anyone have experience with HCG injections as a potential remedy for this?  Lastly, does anyone have experience with an aromatase inhibitor?  My Urologist is pretty good about trying different things to help get me back in the game.  The original Endocrinologist was completely against HCG because he said there were too many negative side effects.  I am not due to go back until this Wednesday and was exploring the possibilty of asking about going the compounding pharmacy route as well.  Any and all input would be greatly appreciated!  Like I said earlier, I'm new to this, so thank you for any help you might be able to offer.


PeakT

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2012, 06:28:13 am »
Wow!  Talk about chaos.  I admire you for so little complaining through all of that.

Okay, here are a few q's for you:

1.  Why did the endo have trouble telling if you were primary or secondary?  Was that just based on looking at LH/FSH?  Did he do additional tests to try to stimulate the testes directly?
2.  If fertility is an issue for you, why not talk to a fertility doc?  They specialize in HCG as well often, as that is really the only approved usage.  This might also help in diagnosing primary versus secondary.
3.  HCG is indeed tricky.  Not only does it have the side effects as testosterone therapy but it can also interfere with LH.  You want someone with experience. 
4.  I've never heard any expert argue for HCG as a good long term treatment.  Of course, maybe some do, but I haven't run across that yet.  Standard testosterone therapy at least has been studied extensively.  There is no equivalent body of research with HCG or anti-estrogens as far as I know.
5.  The testicular atrophy would have me concerned.  With the T levels you have had, that just does not make sense to me.  I would definitely ask more questions about that.  This sounds like primary? 
6.  One guy on this board really likes Testopel.  Many docs are cautious about it though.  It doesn't sound like you like injections (and most guys don't from what I have seen).  And Testim and Androgel are notorious for low absorption.  (Sounds like Axiron was the same for you.)  That leaves you with an option that I don't think anyone has considered:  compounding a bioidentical testosterone.  Have any of your docs considered this option?
7.  Any back pain through all of this? 
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 02:16:26 pm by PeakT »
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2012, 06:28:13 am »


Guyute

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2012, 06:57:10 pm »
Yeah, it has been chaotic.  Having seen results early has been keeping me optimistic.  It's been frustrating but at least I have a good Urologist who has been doing whatever it takes to try and right the ship.

1.  I'm not sure why he had difficulty with the diagnosis.  He said there was no problems with my pituitary.  He did a full blood panel to determine if it was a thyroid or gland issue and everything came back fine.  He did not do any additional tests to stimulate the testes directly.  What type of tests would this include?

2.  I plan on asking my Urologist tomorrow regarding a fertility specialist.

3-5.  I only planned on discussing HCG with my doctor at this point.  I'd like to keep things as simple as possible.  Are there any other ways to "recharge" them and get them working on their own again?  I seem to think that they were producing and then after a while on TRT they stopped.  With this, my levels would go up due to the combined T efforts but then they recognize the extra T and shut down or slow down at least.  They are very soft and literally half the size and really hug close to my body.  When erect, the left testicle actually gets stuck in the area above the testes to the left of the penis.  I simply push it back out.

6.  I was optimistic in trying the Testopel because he said many of his patients had done well with it and the convenience factor seemed better than daily applications.  He mentioned last visit about trying it again just with more pellets.  I'm apprehensive because once they are in, I'm locked into it without the ability to alter the dosage if necessary.  Too much trial and error for me being 15 months into TRT.  I didn't mind the injections honestly, it just didn't work.  It was a similar situation trying to find out how much my dosage should be.  The doctors all seem to want to take baby steps and go from there.  I had 6 injections and we should've been able to figure out a plan in that amount of time.  Every doctor I spoke to was not a fan of injections and tried to dissuade me from trying them.  Based on the fact that I saw quicker results with Androgel and Axiron, I had to bail out.  The endo was really against me getting a weekly dose for whatever reason.  Obviously I'm an extreme case, so I thought he should have been more willing to change things up.  I never tried Testim.  The urologist did prescribe it but my insurance didn't cover it.  Fortunately, my insurance has covered basically everything else.  If I didn't have good insurance I'd be dead in the water.  I plan on asking my urologist tomorrow about the compounding pharmacy option.  Like it said on your site, many guys who have difficulty absorbing the gels do well with a compounded cream.  I like the idea that they can concentrate it and make it strong.  This way you can just put on more or less of it based on individual need.  To this point, however, I have not discussed this as an alternative.

7.  No back pain whatsoever.  If I did, what might that be indicative of?

PeakT, thanks for your input!  Is there anything else I need to bring up at my office visit tomorrow afternoon?

PeakT

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2012, 01:37:11 am »
I've just got a sec here, but a few comments:

Steroid abusers will  often completely shut down their T production.  Doctors can usually jumpstart it with HCG (although not always) and/or an anti-estrogen. 

Some doctors have used HCG also to check to see how the ol' Leydig cells are doing.  For example, one reader wrote in and described how his endo observed a doubling T output with HCG which indicated secondary hypogonadism because it appeared the testes were still fine.

These kind of things require the expertise of sports medicine and anti-aging as well as certain specialized endos.

Back injuries can cause all kinds of problems downstairs.

Also, question for you:  have you ever been a big whey or diet drink consumer?

And let us know what your physician says.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Peak Testosterone Forum

Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2012, 01:37:11 am »


Guyute

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2012, 07:49:24 pm »
Just went to the urologist yesterday.  He didn't really have much to add.  He feels it is most likely primary.  He said he normally sticks to TRT and doesn't prescribe HCG or anti-aromatase inhibitors, attributing it to being more of a specialized endo area of expertise.  He said he would be happy to discuss that with my endo as a point of interest. 

He said he uses compounding pharmacy prescriptions for straight-up ED issues and not for Low T related cases.  However, he did offer to do some research, speak to the pharmacy reps and see if this is something we can explore in the near future.  He also brought up the Testopel again, stating that if I decided to try that again we would go with 10 pellets as opposed to the 8 last time.  He was very optimistic regarding the Testopel and felt that we just failed to get my dosage needs correct the first time.

As for the estradiol, he agrees with me that it is "quite possible" that once I am up around 500+, the estradiol level is altered just enough to throw off the T/E ratio and cause symptoms to re-emerge.  So, being that I just started Axiron again a week ago, he told me to get a full 3 weeks in on it and get bloods and we'll re-evaluate and make a decision then.

I've never had back problems of any kind.  Also,  never been a whey or diet drink consumer.  I used Gaspari Nutrition Super Pump 250 a lot for a few years prior to gym or hockey, but aside from that I really only drink one small cup of coffee a day, 2% milk in moderation and a ton of water.  Maybe a few beers here and there but not often at all.

MrChickenkiev

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 09:59:19 pm »
Intrigued by the one element you skip over in your testimony, the night shift work (and the fact that your T therapy seems to be having mixed results).

Does keeping yourself awake cause a reduction in testosterone or nitric oxide levels in the body which are  required to give you an erection- or does interrupting your regular sleep cycle do similar?

Actually I did find some research that linked night shift work and erectile dysfunction.

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&cp=24&gs_id=2n&xhr=t&q=night+shift+erectile+dysfunction&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&fhp=1&safe=off&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=night+shift+erectile+dys&aq=0w&aqi=q-w1&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=4c26890357e371b1&biw=1366&bih=667

for example....

http://www.ayurhelp.com/articles/sleep_disturbances.htm


 I also typed in "sleep nitric oxide" into Google and got some interesting results,such as http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20926651- "Sleep deprivation triggers inducible nitric oxide-dependent nitric oxide production in wake-active basal forebrain neurons." I am sure if I looked more closely I could dig out more specific associations between sleep and erectile dysfunction. I know there are specific associations between erectile dysfunction and sleep apnea.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/really-the-claim-sleep-apnea-causes-sexual-problems/

Perhaps a similar process has occurred for me, since I have has fairly broken sleep in the last number of years due to stress. But perhaps even the bit of weight I have put round my middle http://www.mens-health-tips.com/obesity-and-snoring.html (I am by no means fat overall) has also caused me to snore http://www.menshealthinstitute.org/2011/01/13/snoring-and-erectile-dysfunction/ and this has starved me of a sufficient amount of oxygen to preserve testosterone and depleted my NO levels too?

I am told I am a bit of a snorer! :)

Really we shouldn't have to work these things out for ourselves.

PeakT

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2012, 01:58:32 am »
Very good point ChknKiev!  Sleep is an underreported and understudied aspect of E.D. and health in general.  I think they will find that it is much more important that anticipated due to neurotransmitter and other neuronal restorative processes that they don't understand yet.  A lot of research has come out in the last ten years.  It will be interesting to see the next ten.

In the meantime, try sleeping a little more.  Maybe you think that is impossible in your current situation, but try during the day.  Experiment and see what effect it has.  It's worth a try, eh?

And I missed the fact that your E was low when T was low.  I guess the only thing that would be a little surprising is the fact you don't sound overweight in the least.  Not always, but usually that is who struggles with estrogen-related problems.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

MrChickenkiev

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 10:01:27 pm »
I hope Guyute can use that information in some positive way, and let us know how he gets on. Are night shifts another occasion when modern man is forced into unreal situations that the body isn't designed to cope with, whether that be processed diets, excessive or inactive physical lifestyles, career workloads, or over stimulation by porn?

Guyute

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2012, 05:46:30 pm »
Thanks for the input gentlemen!  Very interesting and valid points expressed.  I certainly plan on exploring more during my daily research.   MrChickenkiev: to answer your questions...my doctors attribute my issues to a testicular problem.  However, none of them has pinpointed the exact cause.  They just more or less say "something isn't working so let's use TRT to treat it.  Ideally, they are treating my symptoms to try and alleviate them but do not get to the root of the problem nor try and treat that.  It's pretty frustrating going from doctor to doctor and not getting any answers.  There is absolutely a huge "gap in understanding" on their part.  I guess finding the right doctor is a painstaking process.  You're totally right, we really shouldn't have to figure this out for ourselves.  That is why they are considered "medical professionals," no?  At least my Urologist is open to discussion, accepts my research as plausible and is trying to do something to help me.  I should not have to put in the amount of hours of research I'm putting in for something that the doctors should know in the first place.  I know that every case is different, but they should at least have a protocol to follow for certain instances...i.e. Checking Estradiol levels of patients on TRT!!!!! 

MrChickenkiev:  You said you are trying natural means of recovery.  Where are your levels and have you tried TRT?
   

I'm not really downplaying sleep as a possible role in this.  However, when I stated that my sleep patterns were "not exactly normal," I meant that they are simply not the same as the average 9-5 working individual.  I go to work at 7 pm and get home at 4:45-5:00 am, go to sleep immediately and normally get between 5 and 7 hours, sometimes more if my daily schedule is open.  Quite often, I take an hour nap before my shift starts.  I love sleeping and get plenty of it. 

Currently, I have worked nights for 5 years and my body, I feel, thrives at night.  I don't have to force myself to stay awake.  Sure, I certainly have nights where I'm dragging ass a bit, but for the most part, I make it through just fine.  I feel sharper than I did when I worked during the day.  Then, I worked regular office hours and felt myself crashing by 2-3 pm.  Plus, I needed 8+ hours of sleep on a nightly basis.  Now, I work 4 nights in a row (10 hours) and then I'm off for 4 nights.  My schedule is great and really allows me to maintain my active lifestyle.  I am not overweight at all and am actually more active now than in years past.  I have the few extra holiday pounds on my frame right now but I fluctuate between 5 and 8 lbs. at different times of the year.

After all of these months of TRT, I can't figure out why my body just decided to stop working properly with regard to T production.  And the doctors can't either, they just give you a million and one possibilities.  Regarding TRT, I truly believe that as far as the gels go, it was equal parts absorption problem and dosage issue.  While my levels eventually/slowly got to where they needed to be, the lack of absorption combined with proper dosage didn't really keep the levels at a plateau.  Then, hormone ratios were out of whack.  With the injections, I personally think I wasn't getting enough T.  They said I should see results after 3 shots.  I got 6 with negative results.  As usual, doctor was reluctant to give too much.  I think if I got 200mg+ per week, it would've caught on.  Just my opinion though.  Same with Testopel.  Levels only went up by about 100 after 6 weeks.  Not enough T to get me where I need to be.

I've also tried going the supplement route to get a natural T boost or at least a shot to my libido.  At one point, when I first realized that estrogen was a potential problem, I read about DIM.  During this time, my flacid penis was completely shriveled up and shrunken.  It looked deprived, malnourished and totally unhealthy.  Upon trying DIM (2 capsules, twice daily), my flacid penis returned to normal size and appearance after several days.  It actually hung lower as well.  No change in symptoms but I saw this change as maybe a positive indication of increased estrogen metabolism.  I still take it every day. 

I have also used the following items on a 7-day schedule for 3-4 months: 

Day 1: Tribulus Terrestris Extract
Day 2: Horny Goat Weed
Day 3: Rhodiola Extract
Day 4: Catuaba
Day 5: Yohimbine HCI
Day 6: Tongkat Ali
Day 7: Stinging Nettles

I read that "cycling" this way keeps the body guessing and helps prevent building a tolerance.  I didn't see any change over a 3-4 month period, so I'd imagine it didn't help.  DIM, on the other hand, is something I plan on keeping in my supplementation plan.  I also take Vitamin D because the endo said I was a bit low.

As of yesterday, I feel like I'm approaching the point where I start to see results.  Woke up with some wood and was getting that "lustful" feeling a bit during the day yesterday.  I woke up and actually had the capability to remember a dream.  That hasn't happened in forever.  Hopefully it continues and gets stronger.  Once it kicks in full force, it will be pivotal to monitor things so I can see what the Estradiol levels are.  I have to stay on top of it so we can pinpoint that as a potential part of why I haven't seen sustained results on TRT.  Wish me luck boys!

PeakT

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2012, 11:22:36 pm »
A couple of quick comments:

Both yohimbine and rhodiola have more side effects associated w/ them that the other herbs.  I would read up a bit on those (if you haven't already).
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

MrChickenkiev

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2012, 01:21:59 pm »
@Guyute: I really approach my problem from the view that some event has caused my ED. I have had no tests because, my doctor told me my decline was age related at 37, and offered me no further assistance- but I have written about that ad nausea elsewhere on the forum- so please read those posts before deciding whether my conclusions are valid.  I don't believe age is the cause and I've really been suffering from a sense of injustice since then. So I haven't wanted to go back to him, and besides I don't really think he knows how to treat the problem. To some extent although it seems you are improving, I get the impression your urologist doesn't really know either how to solve your problem.

I am loathe to make suggestions based on my limited understanding of the subject, because ultimately it is your health, and I wouldn't want to compromise it. However you say a number of things incidentally, which all tie up for me.

You say:

"I woke up and actually had the capability to remember a dream.  That hasn't happened in forever."

I also take Vitamin D because the endo said I was a bit low.


At least whatever you are doing is having a positive effect, but I can't help feeling that there is a link between poor sleep, your circadian rhythms, the night shifts and erectile dysfunction and even low vitamin D.

The vitamin D problem is the easiest one to describe. You actually get a percentage of vitamin D from natural sunlight and UV rays stimulating its production in the skin. So if you have not had any sunlight for an extended period, your vitamin D levels could be low. There is also a link between vitamin D and testosterone production, and I have read a link where applying a vitamin D cream to the testicles increases testosterone. In my case I take cod liver oil- always have done for most of the last 10 years, and that is a good source, so I am hoping that I don't need additional vitamin D. So someone on permanent night shift not getting enough sun induced vitamin D makes sense.

The connection with your sleep and ED is a more tentative one for me, but I think there is evidence in the links I have already supplied- again I don't have time to research them again but....

The oxygenation thread talks about REM erections which are a mode during which the body replenishes the penis with oxygen to allow it to do its job during waking hours and when you potentially get round to sex. Similarly it is posited that REM sleep is when the brain lays down memories, effectively if you like during down time, when the brain is not required to be actively thinking. Perhaps the body does both essential maintenance jobs during your REM sleep phase. Dreams also occur during the REM state and we potentially remember dreams when we are woken up during the latter stages of REM, effectively we weave a waking narrative when we switch from the fractured nature of laying down memories to full consciousness.

I imagine REM is akin to the way a computer hard drive has various sectors where pieces of work are spread over the disk, so that when you do a "Defrag" of your disk drive, you bring those scattered elements together to create space so those previously utilised areas can be written over. When you remember a dream you are peering half awake into the REM world and often seeing discarded shards in real time. Your half conscious brain tries to make sense of them, so creates a story, which is the dream. OK, that is my interpretation- it could be total BS!

However your REM period is potentially compromised because you can't remember your dreams, (that was until now). So I would posit the theoretical supposition that both the oxygenation of the penis and your lack of dreams have been compromised by the failure of your body to go fully into that REM state. Yes you are getting sleep but it isn't of sufficient quality to restore all your physical systems.

Where the night shift comes into it, is that your body has circadian rhythms which rely on the release of hormones to tell the brain and body to enter the various modes or states which allow you to fall asleep in the first place and then go into REM and eventually wakefulness. Your body relies on outside cues from the environment, such as darkness to for example release the hormone melatonin which knocks you off to sleep. The same early morning light should be your cue to awake, that is if we were following the natural rhythm of getting up in the morning light and going to bed in darkness.

Your body also has an internal clock which effectively counts down the hours to when it expects you will be nodding off- at a predictable time for most people. Those people who are jet lagged are suffering from the fact that they are waking up in a different time zone and their internal clock has not got used to the different hours it is now expected to keep- in other words it takes an amount of time for your clock to adjust and in the meantime you feel awful.

In your case I tentatively propose that your body has become confused hormonally and doesn't know or has been forced to withdraw that injection of hormones which sends you into the REM state, therefore no dreams and no oxygenation of the penis. That is because during the time on your internal clock that it would be expected to be in REM, you are about your waking business (employment) and your body is full of cortisol the waking hormone. There is potentially a corollary explanation for someone who is releasing cortisol for stress reasons, and is therefore flooding out testosterone production. Similarly I wonder whether those on antidepressants flood out or diminish the effects of acetylcholine with serotonin. In other words there has to be a hormonal/neurotransmitter balance and if it is compromised, no wood. The hormone balance Guyute always refers to is between estrogen and testosterone, but this other theory (my own work btw :)) looks at the influence of other hormonal imbalances.

I freely admit I could have got much of the above wrong, but feel free to knock it down.

PeakT

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2012, 02:39:02 pm »
I've got a link on the relationship between sleep and erectile dysfunction here:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/sleep_erectile_dysfunction

There are also neurotransmitter issues as well that I hope to cover at a later date...
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

MrChickenkiev

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2012, 10:47:36 pm »
The links sort of stack up with what the Oxygen links suggests- particularly your link about testosterone and sleep. Perhaps there is general testosterone and endothelial tissue restoration during REM? Of course Guyute started off with T levels of 700 and found they had halved in a short period of time, so it wasn't just a case of shaving 70 points off his T score. Something more cataclysmic happened. And your links do place specific emphasis on the quality, duration and number of interruptions to REM sleep- which figures. The key is how to get that undisturbed sleep and I suspect in Guyute's case get his suprachiasmatic nucleus clock ticking correctly to give him REM. I wonder whether this is a case for melatonin to be supplemented?

Mind you I had a pretty bad experience supplementing with 5-HTP, 5 Hydroxy Tryptophan in 2002, which is the precursor of melatonin. The tryptophan converts to either serotonin or melatonin and the levels in these preparations are huge (100mg) compared to my current weapon of choice which is dark cherry juice with about 12.5 nanograms per glass. http://www.livestrong.com/article/530165-the-antioxidants-in-tart-cherry-juice/Initially I thought 5 HTP was wonderful, probably because my levels were quickly optimized. I felt happy and slept brilliantly, however 2 or 3 months later I was wired, and found it very difficult to come down.

The real clincher of course would be if Guyute had changed to a new shift pattern several months before, and his body was then crashing. Maybe even 6 months before? Basically I imagine the body can take so much change and then it gives up the ghost, but this downward spiral doesn't happen overnight. That would be another reason why it is difficult to put the two events together, night shift and ED, for diagnostic purposes because they occur some time apart.

I think that is what happened to me in a sense, although there was probably some landmark event , perhaps lack of vitamin A tentatively or too much abdominal or gullet fat, the downgrade happened slowly and imperceptibly at first before I suddenly noticed my t levels or penis oxygen levels were too low to get an erection.

MrChickenkiev

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2012, 12:08:37 am »
Should always just google the two terms I want to draw a link too- and bingo you do get references to exactly the problem we are referencing in this case I googled circadian and erectile dysfunction.

https://www.healthtap.com/user_questions/36107-can-disruption-of-circadian-rhythm-cause-erectile-dysfunction

Basically you get up to six erections during REM, and disruption can cause ED and lowered testosterone.

And a bit on how melatonin might fix circadian rhythms.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/melatonin/NS_patient-melatonin/DSECTION=evidence

And a lengthy article on the subject- basically citing that circadian rhythms effect most mammals' sexuality, but we don't have enough research on humans. Well of course why would we want to know whether our own species has problems?... much better to look at mice :)

http://www.discoverymedicine.com/Michael-Sellix/2011/04/05/circadian-clocks-in-mammalian-reproductive-physiology-effects-of-the-other-biological-clock-on-fertility/

PeakT

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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2012, 02:05:58 am »
One quick comment - and I hope to add this to the site shortly:  they found that higher melatonin levels may be associated with lower T levels.  Now that's not necessarily a horrible thing, but it might make you pose and reflect if you're taking the typical megadoses found in supplements.
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Re: Estradiol questions
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2012, 02:05:58 am »