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Author Topic: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?  (Read 11432 times)

kcrunner

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Up until mid-August, I had been on 100 mg testosterone cyp every 7 days intramuscular.    When my labs came in mid-August, my results were:

Total Testosterone:  829 ng/dl
Free Testosterone:  22 ng/dl

Those results were Thursday morning after injecting 100 mg intramuscular the previous Saturday morning.   Also, the metabolic panel from that morning indicated I may have been a little dehydrated as my BUN was 21 mg/dl.   (I run and ride a lot so its common for my hydration levels to be all over the place in the heat of the summer)

After those results, my doctor switched me to 100 mg test cyp intramuscular every 10 days.   Since then I noticed a gradual reduction over time in my libido levels and muscle recovery after long runs or lifting.   I asked my doctor if I could inject more frequently, so she had me come back in for new labs.   Results are the following:

Total Testosterone:  313 ng/dl
Free Testosterone:   33.5 pg/ml (which works out to be 3.35 ng/dl)

Total PSA was .3 ng/ml

A CBC was done as well:

rbc:  4.9 6/ul
HCT:  44.2%
HGB:  15 g/dl

So I don't think polycythemia will ever be a risk for me as my HCT and HGB never get very high no matter my dosage.   I think this is fairly common in runners and particularly those on a plant based diet.    I can look at my levels from even 10 years ago and they were never very high.

So, my doctor now has switched me to 100 mg test cyp intramuscular every 8 days instead of every 10 days.   I self inject.  So my question is this.   When I was on 100 mg every 7 days I felt great throughout the week.   My levels even 5 days out were good (see above).   So this would indicate that I metabolized the testosterone fairly slowly.    However, looking at my levels from the last labs, I was pretty low 9 days after injection, which would indicate that I was metabolizing the testosterone fairly quickly.   Part of this is probably due to my training for trail marathons and ultras for the winter season, and my long runs now last 3 to 4 hours.  I know this can deplete testosterone levels in someone that is not on TRT, I don't know if that has an impact on those on TRT or not.

So, would I be better off trying 100 mg every 8 days (when 100 mg every 7 days was working well for me before), or go to 50 mg every 4 days because my levels were so low at 9 days out when I was on 100 mg every 10 days?

« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 11:14:44 am by PeakT »
Age: 43
Height: 6,1
Weight: 180
Total Testosterone: 829 ng/dl
Free Testosterone: 22 ng/dl
Current Meds:  Levothyroxine 175mcg, Testosterone Cyp Intra-Muscular 100 mg every 5 days.
Supplements-
Multivitamin
Magnesium
Vitamin D
B Complex
Fish Oil

PeakT

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2015, 11:15:32 am »
Up until mid-August, I had been on 100 mg testosterone cyp every 7 days intramuscular.    When my labs came in mid-August, my results were:

Total Testosterone:  829 ng/dl
Free Testosterone:  22 ng/dl

Those results were Thursday morning after injecting 100 mg intramuscular the previous Saturday morning.   Also, the metabolic panel from that morning indicated I may have been a little dehydrated as my BUN was 21 mg/dl.   (I run and ride a lot so its common for my hydration levels to be all over the place in the heat of the summer)

After those results, my doctor switched me to 100 mg test cyp intramuscular every 10 days.   Since then I noticed a gradual reduction over time in my libido levels and muscle recovery after long runs or lifting.   I asked my doctor if I could inject more frequently, so she had me come back in for new labs.   Results are the following:

Total Testosterone:  313 ng/dl
Free Testosterone:   33.5 pg/ml (which works out to be 3.35 ng/dl)

Total PSA was .3 ng/ml

A CBC was done as well:

rbc:  4.9 6/ul
HCT:  44.2%
HGB:  15 g/dl

So I don't think polycythemia will ever be a risk for me as my HCT and HGB never get very high no matter my dosage.   I think this is fairly common in runners and particularly those on a plant based diet.    I can look at my levels from even 10 years ago and they were never very high.

So, my doctor now has switched me to 100 mg test cyp intramuscular every 8 days instead of every 10 days.   I self inject.  So my question is this.   When I was on 100 mg every 7 days I felt great throughout the week.   My levels even 5 days out were good (see above).   So this would indicate that I metabolized the testosterone fairly slowly.    However, looking at my levels from the last labs, I was pretty low 9 days after injection, which would indicate that I was metabolizing the testosterone fairly quickly.   Part of this is probably due to my training for trail marathons and ultras for the winter season, and my long runs now last 3 to 4 hours.  I know this can deplete testosterone levels in someone that is not on TRT, I don't know if that has an impact on those on TRT or not.

So, would I be better off trying 100 mg every 8 days (when 100 mg every 7 days was working well for me before), or go to 50 mg every 4 days because my levels were so low at 9 days out when I was on 100 mg every 10 days?

I think guys usually feel better with more frequent ijections
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2015, 11:15:32 am »


bicoastalguy

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2015, 11:22:04 am »
How about reducing your running?  It looks to me like it is excessive and is probably causing more harm than good.  Rather than tweaking dosages of T, you may get a bigger benefit from adopting a healthier and less destructive exercise routine.  Sometimes, less is more.

PeakT

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2015, 12:48:16 pm »
How about reducing your running?  It looks to me like it is excessive and is probably causing more harm than good.  Rather than tweaking dosages of T, you may get a bigger benefit from adopting a healthier and less destructive exercise routine.  Sometimes, less is more.

I agree that overtraining  can be a problem,  but kcrunner didnt mention any of the classic sympfoms.  So why do you assume that?
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2015, 12:48:16 pm »


bicoastalguy

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2015, 01:02:22 pm »
There is lots of evidence here to suggest over-training.  For example, a paradoxically and persistently low hemoglobin with no other explanation is consistent with a phenomenon called "march hemoglobinuria and hemolysis" due to excessive trauma to the feet and red blood cells.   Trail marathons and long runs that last 3-4 hours are also excessive for most people.   The author of the post also mentions that he notices a "reduction over time in my libido levels and muscle recovery after long runs or lifting."

PeakT

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2015, 01:43:19 pm »
There is lots of evidence here to suggest over-training.  For example, a paradoxically and persistently low hemoglobin with no other explanation is consistent with a phenomenon called "march hemoglobinuria and hemolysis" due to excessive trauma to the feet and red blood cells.   Trail marathons and long runs that last 3-4 hours are also excessive for most people.   The author of the post also mentions that he notices a "reduction over time in my libido levels and muscle recovery after long runs or lifting."

Okay, bicoastalguy - I remember chatting with you now. 

Kcrunner, bicoastalguy knows a lot about this.  Please check these for example showing hemoglobin heads south in overtraining syndrome

http://digitalcommons.wku.edu/ijesab/vol2/iss1/3/

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_28318295/overtraining-endurance-athletes-symptoms-causes-and-solutions

"Fortunately, San Millán says, it's easy to test athletes by looking for markers of overtraining in a blood test. The first thing he looks at is the blood's oxygen-carrying capacity by testing hemoglobin levels. Hemoglobin is a component of red-blood cells; we lose red-blood cells every day, but the body produces new ones. Overtraining, however, reduces the body's ability to replace what we lose. So if San Millán knows what an athlete's baseline hemoglobin levels are, then sees a decline in those levels after an intense period of training, he can spot overtraining — hopefully before the athlete goes too far down that path — and recommend an appropriate amount of rest."
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

kcrunner

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2015, 03:22:41 pm »
There is lots of evidence here to suggest over-training.  For example, a paradoxically and persistently low hemoglobin with no other explanation is consistent with a phenomenon called "march hemoglobinuria and hemolysis" due to excessive trauma to the feet and red blood cells.   Trail marathons and long runs that last 3-4 hours are also excessive for most people.   The author of the post also mentions that he notices a "reduction over time in my libido levels and muscle recovery after long runs or lifting."

I probably should clear some things up then.   My total training volume is lower now than it was in the summer.   For example, in the summer, as I am doing a lot of running races and duathlons, my total volume of running averages 50 miles or so a week.   On top of that I am riding 100 to 130 miles per week, and on top of that, I am strength training as well.

Right now, yes I have a long trail run on the weekends that lasts 3 to 4 hours (on technical trails so its at a slower pace), but my total mileage per week is just 40 to 43 miles per week and since its Fall / Winter, I am only riding 40 to 60 miles per week.    I only maintain those super long training runs for a couple of months a year as I train for a trail marathon or 50k.   After that, my weekend long run drops to 12 to 15 miles.   Right now though I actually take more off days from training than I do at other times of the year. 

I am very cognizant of over-training so I take an off day anytime I am feeling off.   I also monitor my heart rate on runs and rides religiously, and if I start creeping up in my heart rate for a run at a given pace, then I reduce my training volume.   

I looked back at some results I had from 2008.   Back then I ran less than 20 miles a week, didn't ride at all, and only did body weight strength training.

Despite that, in 2008:

HCT:  42.3%
HGB:  14.4 g/dl

So my hemoglobin levels were not very high even when I did not run that much.   

I poorly worded something in my initial post.   What I meant was that my libido slowly drops the further I get from when I last injected, same with my recovery from workouts and this has become more pronounced over time since I switched from 100 mg every 7 days to 100 mg every 10 days.   My personal hypothesis is this:   When I was at 100 mg every 7 days, I was not metabolizing the testosterone faster than I was getting it.   Thus little by little - week by week, my trough and peaks were drifting up a little over time.   When I switched to 100 mg every 10 days, the opposite was happening and I was metabolizing it faster than I was getting it.   Thus little by little - week by week, my trough and peaks were drifting down over time.   So hopefully the new schedule of every 100 mg every 8 days will be the happy medium.

That all said, I eat a whole foods pesectarian diet and really do take care of my health.   I am hardly ever sick, and always have a fairly high energy level.  This was true even before TRT.   Moreover, I have set many of my PRs in the last year, so I can't imagine I am over trained.   The only difference I have ever noticed in my labs after a long hard training run or race is mildly elevated AST levels.   
Age: 43
Height: 6,1
Weight: 180
Total Testosterone: 829 ng/dl
Free Testosterone: 22 ng/dl
Current Meds:  Levothyroxine 175mcg, Testosterone Cyp Intra-Muscular 100 mg every 5 days.
Supplements-
Multivitamin
Magnesium
Vitamin D
B Complex
Fish Oil

kcrunner

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2015, 03:26:26 pm »

"Fortunately, San Millán says, it's easy to test athletes by looking for markers of overtraining in a blood test. The first thing he looks at is the blood's oxygen-carrying capacity by testing hemoglobin levels. Hemoglobin is a component of red-blood cells; we lose red-blood cells every day, but the body produces new ones. Overtraining, however, reduces the body's ability to replace what we lose. So if San Millán knows what an athlete's baseline hemoglobin levels are, then sees a decline in those levels after an intense period of training, he can spot overtraining — hopefully before the athlete goes too far down that path — and recommend an appropriate amount of rest."

I looked at some lab results from 2008 back when I ran less than 20 miles per week and my hemoglobin levels were actually lower then than they are now.
Age: 43
Height: 6,1
Weight: 180
Total Testosterone: 829 ng/dl
Free Testosterone: 22 ng/dl
Current Meds:  Levothyroxine 175mcg, Testosterone Cyp Intra-Muscular 100 mg every 5 days.
Supplements-
Multivitamin
Magnesium
Vitamin D
B Complex
Fish Oil

golfboy307

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2015, 03:33:10 pm »
Bicoastal makes some good points.  In my experience with my own training (and others), the real effects of over training come when you are stepping it up and significantly increasing your mileage.  If KC has been working out at these levels for several years, his body is probably used to it.  However, if I tried to step into his schedule with my 20 miles per week it would kill me. 
Age 51, 5'10, 155 lbs
Cholesterol 162 (HDL 59, LDL 87, Trigs 88, LDL-P 850)
Fasting Glucose 65 (down from 97 pre TRT)
A1C:  5.0 (down from 5.7 per TRT)
Homocysteine:  12.4 > 11.0 > 10.2 > 8.9 using B vitamin therapy.  MTHFR positive 

BP  120/78 (using improved diet and 10 mg Lisinopril ACE Inhibitor)  145/90 prior to meds.

Current protocol:  60 mg Test Cyp IM every 5 days.  No AI.
2/15/17 labs:  Total T (peak day): 1169 (250 - 1100 ng/dl).  Free T 198 pg/ML (46-225).  Sensitive E2: 40 High.  Previously 32. PSA 0.2  Hemocrit 44.2. SHBG: 32
9/15/18 labs:  Total T (trough day):  598 (250 -1100 ng/dl)  Free T 73.9 (46-225) Sensitive E2: 21  Hemocrit 43.7  SHBG 34
2/20/19 labs:  Total T (mid point):  776 (250 -1100 ng/dl) Free T 115.6 (46 - 224 pg/ml) Sensitive E2 24 (<29), DHT 43 (16-79 ng), DHEA-s 244 (70-495 mcg/dl)


Supplements:  Multivitamin, plus additional B12, B6, C, D, K2, Red Yeast Rice, Magnesium, and Coq10  Evening:  Kyolic Garlic, 2mg Cialis, LEF Endothelial Protection

PeakT

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2015, 08:19:37 pm »

"Fortunately, San Millán says, it's easy to test athletes by looking for markers of overtraining in a blood test. The first thing he looks at is the blood's oxygen-carrying capacity by testing hemoglobin levels. Hemoglobin is a component of red-blood cells; we lose red-blood cells every day, but the body produces new ones. Overtraining, however, reduces the body's ability to replace what we lose. So if San Millán knows what an athlete's baseline hemoglobin levels are, then sees a decline in those levels after an intense period of training, he can spot overtraining — hopefully before the athlete goes too far down that path — and recommend an appropriate amount of rest."

I looked at some lab results from 2008 back when I ran less than 20 miles per week and my hemoglobin levels were actually lower then than they are now.

Noted.  I don't know that level of detail.  Bicoastalguy is pretty up on this stuff, though, so, if your're int'd, you should ask him some more questions.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

Anthony01234567

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2015, 11:38:05 pm »
Back to the original question ...

The original question was:   50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight Days?

One person above mentioned that, typically, men feel better with more frequent injections (not less).

I'd also add that more frequent injections (50 mg every four days) is a closer "mimic" to the body's natural testosterone production than the less frequent injections are (100 mg every eight days).

kcrunner

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2015, 06:03:50 am »
So would it be worth trying 25 mg subq every other day then?   If I did that, what kind of average testosterone levels should I expect?   
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 08:10:22 am by kcrunner »
Age: 43
Height: 6,1
Weight: 180
Total Testosterone: 829 ng/dl
Free Testosterone: 22 ng/dl
Current Meds:  Levothyroxine 175mcg, Testosterone Cyp Intra-Muscular 100 mg every 5 days.
Supplements-
Multivitamin
Magnesium
Vitamin D
B Complex
Fish Oil

PeakT

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2015, 09:15:56 am »
So would it be worth trying 25 mg subq every other day then?   If I did that, what kind of average testosterone levels should I expect?
100 mg / 3.5 = 28.57 mg EOD ~ 30 mg EOD.  This is what I am currently doing.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

kcrunner

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2015, 09:28:06 am »
So would it be worth trying 25 mg subq every other day then?   If I did that, what kind of average testosterone levels should I expect?
100 mg / 3.5 = 28.57 mg EOD ~ 30 mg EOD.  This is what I am currently doing.

How long does it take you to load the insulin syringe?   It takes a couple of minutes to draw a half cc with a 23 gauge needle, so I am thinking it could really take a while with a 28 gauge.

I am assuming one could still do IM every other day, they would just have to rotate injection sites all over. 
Age: 43
Height: 6,1
Weight: 180
Total Testosterone: 829 ng/dl
Free Testosterone: 22 ng/dl
Current Meds:  Levothyroxine 175mcg, Testosterone Cyp Intra-Muscular 100 mg every 5 days.
Supplements-
Multivitamin
Magnesium
Vitamin D
B Complex
Fish Oil

PeakT

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2015, 09:30:01 am »
So would it be worth trying 25 mg subq every other day then?   If I did that, what kind of average testosterone levels should I expect?
100 mg / 3.5 = 28.57 mg EOD ~ 30 mg EOD.  This is what I am currently doing.

How long does it take you to load the insulin syringe?   It takes a couple of minutes to draw a half cc with a 23 gauge needle, so I am thinking it could really take a while with a 28 gauge.

I am assuming one could still do IM every other day, they would just have to rotate injection sites all over.

It takes me two or three minutes.  No longer than that tho I don't think.

By the way, you're not on 100 mg per week so my numbers are a bit off for you.  Disregard.
THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE BOOK ON TRT/TESTOSTERONE:
https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Versus-Testosterone-Therapy-Myer/dp/1523210532/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499116128&sr=8-1&keywords=natural+versus+testosterone+therapy
And check out my New Peak Testosterone Program: http://www.peaktestosterone.com/peak_testosterone_program
If you are on medications or have a medical condition, always check with your doctor first before making any lifestyle changes or taking new supplements.  And low testosterone is a medical condition.

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Re: 50 mg of Testosterone Cypionate Every Four Days or 100 mg Every Eight?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2015, 09:30:01 am »